GOAT - Not necessarily related to player on the court. Impact such as making the game great, being the person that revived the league and saved the game get special consideration and are factored into the assessment. Accolades, awards, rule changes, records and total resume are all part of the measurement. Russell, Chamberlain, Magic, Bird and Jordan thrive in this discussion.
GOAT Player - What happens between the 50 by 90 foot court. This does not incorporate such things as accolades, resume or impact off of the court. Its about pure play. Stats can be used but player description and excellence are looked at. Skills, Fundamentals, Domination, Qualites are all part of the equation. Duncan, Kobe, Shaq etc.
Complete Player - Complete implies full set of skills, full set of tools, full set of defensive skills, full set of offensive skills, full set of fundamentals, full set of intangibles, full set of gifts, full set of talent, full set of versatility, full mental set, full physical set, full set of talents, full set of qualities, full set of front court and back court abilities would be the most complete player.
Wilt, Oscar, Pippen, Hakeem, Lebron etc.
Curious as to how you would define superstar?
Do you really care to make the distinction? Do you have others?
GOAT - Not necessarily related to player on the court. Impact such as making the game great, being the person that revived the league and saved the game get special consideration and are factored into the assessment. Accolades, awards, rule changes, records and total resume are all part of the measurement. Russell, Chamberlain, Magic, Bird and Jordan thrive in this discussion.
GOAT Player - What happens between the 50 by 90 foot court. This does not incorporate such things as accolades, resume or impact off of the court. Its about pure play. Stats can be used but player description and excellence are looked at. Skills, Fundamentals, Domination, Qualites are all part of the equation. Duncan, Kobe, Shaq etc.
Complete Player - Complete implies full set of skills, full set of tools, full set of defensive skills, full set of offensive skills, full set of fundamentals, full set of intangibles, full set of gifts, full set of talent, full set of versatility, full mental set, full physical set, full set of talents, full set of qualities, full set of front court and back court abilities would be the most complete player.
Wilt, Oscar, Pippen, Hakeem, Lebron etc.
Curious as to how you would define superstar?
Do you really care to make the distinction? Do you have others?
Since GOAT = Kareem and post does not include him it is concluded that OP is a fakkit and none of the mentioned in the OP can be considered in the conversation.
Since GOAT = Kareem and post does not include him it is concluded that OP is a fakkit and none of the mentioned in the OP can be considered in the conversation.
Duncefly, the names below the descriptions are not complete and are to highlight an aspect of the conversation. I'm looking only for distinction within definitions - not a list.
GOAT - Not necessarily related to player on the court. Impact such as making the game great, being the person that revived the league and saved the game get special consideration and are factored into the assessment. Accolades, awards, rule changes, records and total resume are all part of the measurement. Russell, Chamberlain, Magic, Bird and Jordan thrive in this discussion.
GOAT Player - What happens between the 50 by 90 foot court. This does not incorporate such things as accolades, resume or impact off of the court. Its about pure play. Stats can be used but player description and excellence are looked at. Skills, Fundamentals, Domination, Qualites are all part of the equation. Duncan, Kobe, Shaq etc.
Complete Player - Complete implies full set of skills, full set of tools, full set of defensive skills, full set of offensive skills, full set of fundamentals, full set of intangibles, full set of gifts, full set of talent, full set of versatility, full mental set, full physical set, full set of talents, full set of qualities, full set of front court and back court abilities would be the most complete player.
Wilt, Oscar, Pippen, Hakeem, Lebron etc.
Curious as to how you would define superstar?
Do you really care to make the distinction? Do you have others?
Looking at definitions and examples would it be fair to say that a/the big (if implicit) difference between GOAT and GOAT player is the latter is era independent (i.e. "stick them in a time machine" type of arguments).
Would you put Wilt in "complete". I'd say his shooting touch away from the basket makes him less complete than players who are substatiantially worse overall, had less impact etc. Also does one have to be a superstar to be complete. The most complete player thread was dominanted by superstars but guys like Wilt and Russell were mentioned yet I'd find it easier to find a flaw in their games (ft shooting) than in that of say, Tom Gugliotta. Does complete imply excellence in most categories or a lack of flaws in any.
Superstar, I'd say refers more to media status (and often ppg) than basketball ability. Carmelo Anthony is a superstar, but there are guys I would rather have who have a lower name recognition (Russell Westbrook for example). Amar'e is probably a superstar too but the same applies (sorry Knicks fans).
I'd say the equivalant to superstar in basketball talent terms would be roughly a top 10 player in the league at that time.
Anyway interesting distinction between GOAT and GOAT player.
Interesting definitions in there and ways of viewing things.
There might be little difference. There're numerous ways of ranking the best players of all time and defining them. Also, i'd add GOAT team superstar: players who dominated on the court, had a team first mentality and made all better on the court e.g Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan...
Then individual superstar: guys who dominated on the court, produced well for the teams but were mostly focused on themselves rather than the team in comparison to the above mentioned. Such involves Wilt, Oscar, Kobe, O'Neal, Hakeem etc.
I don't where to put these, who appear to be a little bit of both: Kareem, LeBron, Baylor, West.
And the point of this thread is good too. In a way, it looks how the users here make their lists of the greatest players ever and are made by using different criteria which makes some selections reasonable.
Looking at definitions and examples would it be fair to say that a/the big (if implicit) difference between GOAT and GOAT player is the latter is era independent (i.e. "stick them in a time machine" type of arguments).
Thanks Owl! Good point. Don't know how I would call it just yet, but you notice hostility and hater breeding because a distinction is too hard to factor in.
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Would you put Wilt in "complete". I'd say his shooting touch away from the basket makes him less complete than players who are substatiantially worse overall, had less impact etc. Also does one have to be a superstar to be complete. The most complete player thread was dominanted by superstars but guys like Wilt and Russell were mentioned yet I'd find it easier to find a flaw in their games (ft shooting) than in that of say, Tom Gugliotta. Does complete imply excellence in most categories or a lack of flaws in any.
I too had problems with definitions in that thread. Every player is going to have a couple of weaknesses if he has excellences. I think Wilt had more proven excellences than any other player, I think Jordan/Oscar were very well rounded greats without much flaws and KG was the best in having both. But I fully hear you in that guys like Sidney Moncrief, Gugs and Fat Lever aren't going to get play tho they certainly deserve it in that type of forum.
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Superstar, I'd say refers more to media status (and often ppg) than basketball ability. Carmelo Anthony is a superstar, but there are guys I would rather have who have a lower name recognition (Russell Westbrook for example). Amar'e is probably a superstar too but the same applies (sorry Knicks fans).
I'd say the equivalant to superstar in basketball talent terms would be roughly a top 10 player in the league at that time.
Anyway interesting distinction between GOAT and GOAT player.
Thanks for the contribution minus the Knick references .
Superstar, GOAT, GOAT Player, Complete player...
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