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Old 05-05-2013, 07:45 PM   #421
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by Bandito
That is subjective too. It is source-less but that is because is impossible to prove unless someone rats him out or he confesses. I am going from what I saw. After that year I stopped being a fan of his and 11 just destroyed any semblance of respect I had for him as a player.
You were never a fan of his. Please stop trying to act like you are unbiased, you are just as bad as the kobe stan trolls, you hate leBron.

Why hate a man you don't even know? What are you trying to achieve? Just let it go and move on...
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:45 PM   #422
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by blood yes
Please stop trying to pretend you're unbiased.

Just admit you hate LeBron and move on, you'll feel a lot better
That is what Kobestans used to say to him back in 09-10
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:45 PM   #423
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by blood yes
Please stop trying to pretend you're unbiased.

Just admit you hate LeBron and move on, you'll feel a lot better

hahahahaha.

I've defended Lebron for years on here.

Hilarious.

Yep. I hate Lebron. Been saying for years that he'd win multiple titles and go down as a sure fire top 10 player of all time.

Get it straight. You don't have to overvalue a player in the moment to prove you like them.

Lebron has simply not done enough yet to rank him higher than some of the players mentioned in this thread....and we all can't just collectively agree to ignore the biggest collapse of a star player in the history of the NBA in the 11 Finals.

Does that really not matter to anyone? Think about that for a few minutes please.

You want to be able to say that he's clearly better than Duncan...ok. Could you imagine Duncan ever losing a series to the 11 Mavs with Wade and Bosh at his side with those role players? It's a ****ing joke. Would never happen.

So, like I said, Lebron has a long way to go in order to produce enough results to somewhat erase that.

And don't count your chickens before they hatch. You Lebron/Heat fans did the same thing in 11...how did that turn out?

You do realize that Lebron is one more poor series and a loss in the playoffs away from having a terrible playoff legacy in his prime. Again..this stuff is very fragile.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:48 PM   #424
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by blood yes
You were never a fan of his. Please stop trying to act like you are unbiased, you are just as bad as the kobe stan trolls, you hate leBron.

Why hate a man you don't even know? What are you trying to achieve? Just let it go and move on...
I don't hate nobody. I may have lost respect for him but is not like I hate him or anything. I am just not a blindfolded stan like you that defends the indefensible.

WE all know he's probably going down as the best SF but he's not there yet and has to prove himself in the fire of the competition that he's the best historically. Right now he's the best, but better than Larry Legend? Heck no.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:49 PM   #425
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by Bandito
I don't hate nobody. I may have lost respect for him but is not like I hate him or anything. I am just not a blindfolded stan like you that defends the indefensible.
Yes, im a stan
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:50 PM   #426
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by Bandito
That is subjective too. It is source-less but that is because is impossible to prove unless someone rats him out or he confesses. I am going from what I saw. After that year I stopped being a fan of his and 11 just destroyed any semblance of respect I had for him as a player.

But you are a stan!?

It is subjective, of course it is, but so is any opinion people put forward technically. That cavs team was not good enough to beat the celtics unless something tremendously unlikely occurred.

And no, I am not a lebron stan. I have kobe above lebron in the GOAT race (and rightly so). And I don't make excuses for the choke in 2011, because it was exactly that, a choke. I like lebron as a player, but I mainly try to counter the vast kobestan brigade with some logic (which probably gives the general impression that I'm a lebron stan).
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:53 PM   #427
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Lebron's career is still very young when talking about the all time greats. He has work to do to get in that top 5-8 range but he is only 28...he needs to win the title this year to keep moving up that is only natural. Give it time...right now he isn't where he likely will be in 5 years time....Mavs41 is right here and yes Mavs41 has backed Lebron alot so he doesn't have an agenda here at all.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:54 PM   #428
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Dmavs, you are a very good poster
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:49 PM   #429
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Actually, Lebron's teams in 09 and 10 were as good or better than Duncan's in 03.

And...actually, Lebron choked his ass off in 11.
No, they were not. Robinson still provided veteran leadership and solid rim protection as a defender. Parker was better than anyone LeBron had in 2007. Poppovich is a million times the coach Mike Brown was. It was a relatively mediocre supporting cast compared to other championship teams, but it was not worse than the 2007 Cavs.

As for your second point, so what? Plenty of so-called “legends” have done the same far more often than LeBron. Bird choked, Wilt choked, Kareem choked, Magic choked, Kobe choked, etc. It’s just one Finals. His future achievements will likely make the 2011 Finals an irrelevant footnote in his legacy.

Quote:
You can't have it both ways. You can't use things like titles and successes to rank players and then conveniently sweep the fact that Lebron lost the 11 finals, in the heart of his prime, with Bosh and Wade and a solid team around him against one of the weakest (in terms of talent) title teams in NBA history.

So no, it's not the "truth"...there is no evidence at all to suggest Duncan wouldn't have easily won in 2011 with the kind of help Lebron had. Hell, look what Duncan is doing now at his age.

I’m not having it both ways. LeBron underperformed in 2011. Again, so what? It’s one series and if he goes on to win 3-4 more titles, nobody will care because it won’t matter. Magic, Bird and Kobe choked their arses off as well. Far more often than LeBron did. LeBron’s only blemish in his career is the 2011 Finals. And honestly, the stats were nowhere near as bad as Kobe’s. At least he did not hoist up 25+ FGA and shoot below 40%.


Quote:
Lebron has a long long long way to go to match a guy like Duncan and his longevity and success.

Duncan has now led his team to what...14 straight 50 win seasons. Never been done before. 4 titles without an all nba teammate...never been done before.
Definitely not a long way to go. What a gross exaggeration. We’re talking about a guy who has 4 MVP’s in 5 seasons, which hasn’t been accomplished since the 60’s. Duncan was never that good. MVP’s are a testament to relative dominance, how far ahead of your peers you are. Duncan was only clearly ahead of his peers for two seasons and in all honestly was never the runaway, consensus #1 player in the league. There was always a legitimate argument for guys like Shaq, sometimes Kobe and even Garnett a few seasons. LeBron has been, hands down, the best player and most dominant player in the league since 2008. There’s honestly no arguing this. His stats are so much better than anyone’s. This is not the case with Duncan.


Quote:
So please don't come on here and pretend like Lebron is clearly better than Duncan or Kobe if he wins a title this year. Especially given how stacked his team is and the fact that his main competition lost their 2nd best player.

Do you Lebron stans just expect everyone to ignore the 11 finals? The 10 collapse against the Celtics? Those are black marks that aren't just going away with 1 title on a historically stacked team...sorry.
He’s easily better than Kobe and I honestly see no argument for Duncan over him. His “main competition” wouldn’t have beat the Heat even if they had their second best player, so the point is moot.

The 2010 Celtics thing wasn’t a collapse. We saw a player lose to a vastly superior all-around team while having subpar shooting series. If that’s considered a collapse, then Magic, Kareem, Bird, Duncan have had several collapses (if we define “collapse” as a series in which a player underperforms while losing to a more talented team).

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Lebron needs to win 3 titles before I move him ahead of Duncan. And this isn't a case of ring count. It's about the opportunities Lebron has had. This will be his 3rd year in a row with the best team...and that is likely to continue for at least 2 more years. So I need to see 3 titles in 5 years in order to put him even with ahead of Duncan.

And I'll tell you this. If the Spurs beat the Heat in the finals this year...Lebron will never catch Duncan. So again. calm yourself down and let it play out.

Not at all. I can just as easily say Duncan needs to win 2 more MVP’s before I move him ahead of LeBron with 4 MVP’s and 2 Finals MVP’s. You are using titles as your main criteria. I use it as part of the equation when ranking players and also put titles into appropriate context. LeBron never had a legitimate championship team until 2011. Never. So if you include this season, that’s a grand total of 3 seasons LeBron has played where you could have reasonably expected him to win a title. Contrast this to Duncan, who’s played on a title contender for basically his entire career. And furthermore, LeBron winning 3 titles imo is a foregone conclusion if you count this year. That would mean only 1 more.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:52 PM   #430
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Lebron has not done enough yet. Sorry.

The 2nd best player ever does not get outplayed by Jason Terry in the biggest series of his life...on a historically stacked team...in the heart of his prime.
If “done enough” is another way of saying “hasn’t had a championship team for long enough like all these other players we’re comparing him to”, then I agree with you. The argument is so ridiculous. If LeBron was drafted onto the 1980 Lakers or 1980 Celtics and in his rookie year or by his second season had a championship cast surrounding him, his career resume would currently be second only to Jordan – at age 28. If he was drafted onto a team with prime Shaq, he’d have 5 titles by now. Or if he played with the equivalent of a prime Penny, prime Kobe, or prime Wade for his entire career, he’d have more titles than Shaq as well.


Quote:
Lebron has a long way to go in order to have everyone overlook that giant pile of shit staining his legacy.

If Lebron wins fmvp and another title this year. He will vault into that Kobe / Hakeem range as a player an no higher.

He has too much left to prove.
Not really. If that’s the case, we cannot overlook Magic, Kobe and Bird’s massive playoff chokes as well. Those are permanent stains on their legacies as well. When LeBron wins Finals MVP this year, he vaults to #2 all-time and second to only Jordan. Comparing him to Kobe and Hakeem is just idiotic. Hakeem with 2 titles (same as LeBron) and 3 less MVP’s? Kobe with 2 titles as top dog (though poor Finals showings) and 3 as second fiddle to Shaq and only 1 MVP? No, just no. LeBron basically accomplished what Wilt did at just age 28 – 4 MVP’s and 2 rings, except he was much more influential in his second ring than Wilt was in his 1972 title.

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It would be one thing if he was awful in the finals early on in his career...oh wait, that happened in 07 when Duncan/Spurs swept him...LOL...but getting roasted like that in the heart of your prime with the most help in the league...playing a team with far less talent and without homecourt? Nah...can't just ignore that when ranking Lebron historically at this point.

Bringing up 2007 is actually an argument in favor of LeBron. No other player at age 22 has led such a pathetic trash team worth maybe 20 wins to the Finals. They shouldn’t have even gotten past the conference Finals. The Pistons were a far, far, far more talented team. You keep rehashing the same 2011 thing over and over again as if anyone cares. Again, if one Finals series has such an influence on a player’s legacy, then guys like Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Magic are far greater chokers and should be bumped way down on everyone’s rankings.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:09 PM   #431
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010splash
If “done enough” is another way of saying “hasn’t had a championship team for long enough like all these other players we’re comparing him to”, then I agree with you. The argument is so ridiculous. If LeBron was drafted onto the 1980 Lakers or 1980 Celtics and in his rookie year or by his second season had a championship cast surrounding him, his career resume would currently be second only to Jordan – at age 28. If he was drafted onto a team with prime Shaq, he’d have 5 titles by now. Or if he played with the equivalent of a prime Penny, prime Kobe, or prime Wade for his entire career, he’d have more titles than Shaq as well.



Not really. If that’s the case, we cannot overlook Magic, Kobe and Bird’s massive playoff chokes as well. Those are permanent stains on their legacies as well. When LeBron wins Finals MVP this year, he vaults to #2 all-time and second to only Jordan. Comparing him to Kobe and Hakeem is just idiotic. Hakeem with 2 titles (same as LeBron) and 3 less MVP’s? Kobe with 2 titles as top dog (though poor Finals showings) and 3 as second fiddle to Shaq and only 1 MVP? No, just no. LeBron basically accomplished what Wilt did at just age 28 – 4 MVP’s and 2 rings, except he was much more influential in his second ring than Wilt was in his 1972 title.



Bringing up 2007 is actually an argument in favor of LeBron. No other player at age 22 has led such a pathetic trash team worth maybe 20 wins to the Finals. They shouldn’t have even gotten past the conference Finals. The Pistons were a far, far, far more talented team. You keep rehashing the same 2011 thing over and over again as if anyone cares. Again, if one Finals series has such an influence on a player’s legacy, then guys like Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Magic are far greater chokers and should be bumped way down on everyone’s rankings.


Everything you say I would have most likely agreed with prior to the 11 Finals.

But the 11 Finals happened. So all of that..."just give Lebron a quality team and he'll win you the title" talk...and I was a part of it mind you...goes out the window because of his epic failure and epic collapse.

I can ignore the 07 finals because his team just wasn't good. Had a poor coach..etc. I can even ignore his meltdown in 2010 for the same reasons.

But nothing can be ignored about 2011.

So you can talk all you want about what Lebron would do in the 80's etc. All I know is that Lebron has to show us what he can do with the clear cut best team in the league in the heart of his prime right now.

And so far, the results are mixed. Last year was great...year before was a disaster of epic proportions that no other star in NBA history in the top 10 ever did. Only Kobe in the 04 finals even compares...and even then, Kobe's play was better.

Yes, Lebron has a long way to go...not in terms of as a player...but his accomplishments. He has to put it all together the way a guy like Duncan has. Duncan has been playing great ball his entire career and has won 4 titles. Like I said before, I need to see Lebron get 3 before I move him even with or ahead of Duncan.

Why do you act like that is unreasonable? Duncan, in the heart of his prime, would already have for sure 2 titles playing with the Heat in 11 and 12. That can't even be debated. So I need to see Lebron do a bit more. If he had won in 11 this would be a different discussion and I'd probably have him even with Duncan at this point.

But we can't just ignore the biggest meltdown by a great player in NBA history.

Comparing it to what Bird or Magic or some of the other players did is just pathetically dishonest.

Right now I have Lebron as the 11th best player of all time. If he wins the title and fmvp this year. I'll probably have him as the 7th or 8th best player of all time right behind Duncan.

Do you really think that is unreasonable? If so, you should check your bias.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:14 AM   #432
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Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Everything you say I would have most likely agreed with prior to the 11 Finals.

But the 11 Finals happened. So all of that..."just give Lebron a quality team and he'll win you the title" talk...and I was a part of it mind you...goes out the window because of his epic failure and epic collapse.
It was an uncharacteristically sub-par performance that happened to occur in the Finals and is therefore blown way out of proportion. Calling is an “epic collapse” and “epic failure” is gross hyperbole, unless you’re willing to call out these other players who are supposedly ahead of or equal to LeBron for their epic chokes:

Larry Bird 1985 Finals – shot a putrid 44.9 FG%
Larry Bird 1987 Finals – shot a putrid 44.5 FG%
(keep in mind 80’s average FG% was way, way higher so a sub 45 FG% back then is low 40 FG% today)

Magic Johnson 1983 Finals – shot a horrendous 40.3 FG% en route to being swept 4-0
Magic Johnson 1984 Finals – earned him the nickname “Tragic” Johnson
Magic Johnson 1991 Finals – again shot a very bad 43 FG%

Kobe Bryant 2000 Finals – 36.7 FG%
Kobe Bryant 2001 Finals – 41.5 FG%
Kobe Bryant 2004 Finals – 38.1 FG% and chucked his HOF-studded super team to a loss against a team with no superstar
Kobe Bryant 2008 Finals – 40 FG%
(and then of course there’s the 6-24 in Game 7 of 2010, which will unfortunately be forgotten in history because the Lakers won)

So yeah, you and others blow 2011 way out of proportion. I’m not even going to bother looking up chokes by Wilt, Kareem, etc but I’m sure they had plenty. Honestly, it’s just one bad series for LeBron.

Quote:
I can ignore the 07 finals because his team just wasn't good. Had a poor coach..etc. I can even ignore his meltdown in 2010 for the same reasons.

But nothing can be ignored about 2011
Yeah, 2007 should be ignored because the team had lottery level talent and yet by some miracle managed to beat Detroit and make the Finals. That itself is an accomplishment basically nobody in the top 10 has.

Quote:
So you can talk all you want about what Lebron would do in the 80's etc. All I know is that Lebron has to show us what he can do with the clear cut best team in the league in the heart of his prime right now.

And so far, the results are mixed. Last year was great...year before was a disaster of epic proportions that no other star in NBA history in the top 10 ever did. Only Kobe in the 04 finals even compares...and even then, Kobe's play was better.
Well, in 2012 he redeemed himself. Wade was banged up and nowhere near as dominant as he was in the 2011 playoffs. Bosh didn’t even play the second round and half the ECF. So bringing up 2011 is pretty irrelevant, especially if we’re going to act like it was any worse than the chokes of Bird, Wilt, Magic, Kareem and Kobe.

I just pointed out several players in the top 10 who had not just one, but multiple chokes that were worse. And besides hitting that game-tying three in Game 2, nothing about Kobe’s play in 2004 was better. He jacked his team out of every game.

Quote:
Yes, Lebron has a long way to go...not in terms of as a player...but his accomplishments. He has to put it all together the way a guy like Duncan has. Duncan has been playing great ball his entire career and has won 4 titles. Like I said before, I need to see Lebron get 3 before I move him even with or ahead of Duncan.

Why do you act like that is unreasonable? Duncan, in the heart of his prime, would already have for sure 2 titles playing with the Heat in 11 and 12. That can't even be debated. So I need to see Lebron do a bit more. If he had won in 11 this would be a different discussion and I'd probably have him even with Duncan at this point.
It’s unreasonable because Duncan just wasn’t as dominant as LeBron. Your only criteria when comparing the two seems to be the number of titles won, which is absolutely important, but a flawed way of comparing a player (Duncan) who’s had a championship caliber team around him for basically his entire career to a player (LeBron) who’s had a championship caliber team around him for a total of 3 seasons. Duncan could definitely win titles with this Heat team in place of LeBron, but so what? That’s not the team he had. LeBron went to the Finals and won 66 games with pure scrubs and a dumb head coach – I have no doubt he’d win several titles playing with Parker/Ginobili and with one of the all-time greatest coaches in Popovich.

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But we can't just ignore the biggest meltdown by a great player in NBA history.

Comparing it to what Bird or Magic or some of the other players did is just pathetically dishonest.
Again, no. What’s being dishonest is acting like one bad Finals series is “the biggest meltdown in history.” Just call it what it was – by his standards a subpar performance. Magic and Bird had plenty. Kobe had plenty and so did others.


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Right now I have Lebron as the 11th best player of all time. If he wins the title and fmvp this year. I'll probably have him as the 7th or 8th best player of all time right behind Duncan.

Do you really think that is unreasonable? If so, you should check your bias.

11th is absolutely ridiculous for a 4-time MVP winner. The accomplishment of winning 4 MVP’s puts him in a category that only Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Russell belong to. From the rankings I’ve seen, all of them are considered unquestionably top-5 all time players. Nobody ranks Wilt “7th or 8th best player of all time” so putting LeBron (who will have literally the same accomplishments and did it in a much tougher era) in that range is way underrating him. Like I said, top 2 all-time after another Finals MVP. I’ll maybe say I’d be ok with people putting him as low as #4 all-time if they want to continue overrating past players who were clearly inferior to LeBron just because they played in the past.

Last edited by 2010splash : 05-06-2013 at 12:17 AM.
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