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Old 02-08-2008, 09:49 PM   #31
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by Psileas
That's partially my point, at least when it comes to long-term competition in the 90's: That the trophy would be passed around. No dynasties, no team with a long enough period to be qualified as an all-time great competitor. I'll give my estimation on who would win the title if Jordan didn't exist:

1991: Pistons
1992: Knicks
1993: Suns/Knicks
1994: Rockets
1995: Rockets
1996: Sonics
1997: Jazz
1998: Jazz

5-6 champions in 8 years. Doesn't seem much different from the 70's, and, as you know, most people tend to neglect 70's teams.

Also, consider the following: There are plenty of fans who belittle the 2 trophies of Houston, "because Jordan wasn't there". Well, if that's a real reason these championships shouldn't "count", this means that Jordan's Bulls were actually the only competition of the era and that the rest of them weren't anything special. Houston more or less beat the same teams that Chicago beat: Portland, Phoenix, N.York, Utah, Orlando plus San Antonio. What makes Chicago's competition great and Houston's neglegible? Jordan by himself? If you think so, be it, but then, don't talk about real competition on the part of other teams.


I think your saying the same think Im saying even if one of those teams had beaten Jordan and the Bulls nobody would be calling them a "Great" team. As you pointed out none calls the 79 Soncis or 75 Warriors a great team they had a couple of great players but thats it.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by iamgine
Ahh yes but do you know basketball is not played on paper?


Well when talking about opinions yes it is being played on paper. Its not we gonna get an 87 magic to dress up to play an 95 Jordan. to prove whos right
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:56 PM   #33
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by kidachi
they surely will if they beat Chicago.

those teams that i said weren't "great" because they didn't win championships.. why no championships? CHICAGO BULLS.

Larry Bird can be Larry Bird. Isiah can be Isiah.. and Sixers would be the Sixers.. but if they never won a title.. those 80's Boston, Philly and Detroit team would be forgotten. like those teams Chicago beat in the 90's.


Where do you get your logic from. If the 80's Celtics had never won people would still be calling them a great team. Let me prove my point. The 60's Lakers were a great team with West and Baylor they just feel short because of the Celtics. Now maybe they dont get called in the top 10 of teams but they sure are in the next 5 of all time great teams many times they would take the celtics to 7 games and lose on a fluke.people remember those teams. I would say the closest team that would be called great were the Suns and Jazz But just making the finals 1 or 2 times and falling short makes your teams legacy fall short.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:01 PM   #34
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by Loki
Except Jordan could also have a 46 point/6 assist game, which would also be 58 points. Or he could have a 48 point/7 assist game, which would be 62 points. Or a 52 point/6 assist game, which would be 64 points.

In short, your original remark was bogus and it's about time you just said you were wrong and move on.

What makes it bogus because you dont agree ? Sure Jordan could score 60 points but for sure its more likel;y the more he scored the less assis the would have unlike Magic who might score 37 have 10 assist and 12 rebounds . But the bottom line is at the end of the day Magic and Jordan would end up for the most part even then you got to look at the rest of the players. That was the proble with the Bulls 90's opponents they didnt have anyone that could match Jordans greatness.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by kgisbigticket
Maybe because they won by 12.2 ppg. They had the highest offensive rating ever at 115.8 and they were #1 in both offensive and defensive rating. They won 72 games and was 87-13 all year round. No one else had less than 16 losses including playoffs.


This makes the great in there era. still doesnt make them the greatest team ever. not when you look at the match ups.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:10 PM   #36
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by TurkeyStraightUp
From the NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time selections in 1996.

Bull, Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, 76ers and Knicks are the best All-Time teams:

1964-65 Boston Celtics
1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers
1969-70 New York Knicks
1971-72 Los Angeles Lakers

1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers
1985-86 Boston Celtics
1986-87 Los Angeles Lakers
1988-89 Detroit Pistons

1991-92 Chicago Bulls
1995-96 Chicago Bulls

http://www.nba.com/history/toptenteams_index.html

This helps support my saying the lakers were Ali and the Bulls were Holmes. Of the Top 10 teams that core group of Lakers beat 3 and after years of dominating came a young Larry Holmes Bulls team . IF you also noticed no team but the Lakers that the Bulls faced are on this list.
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Old 02-09-2008, 12:48 AM   #37
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by Niquesports
What makes it bogus because you dont agree ? Sure Jordan could score 60 points but for sure its more likel;y the more he scored the less assis the would have unlike Magic who might score 37 have 10 assist and 12 rebounds . But the bottom line is at the end of the day Magic and Jordan would end up for the most part even then you got to look at the rest of the players. That was the proble with the Bulls 90's opponents they didnt have anyone that could match Jordans greatness.

No, what makes it bogus is this:

1) You tried to employ some silly math about how Jordan could score 40 points, but Magic could have 24/12, thereby accounting for 48 points, oblivious to the fact that Jordan would also have assists.

2) After I pointed out that Jordan would also likely have 5-9 assists to go along with his 40 points, you acted like such games were a rarity for Jordan, waved your hands and acted as if I hadn't made a valid point.

3) I then demonstrated with facts that such games were not a rare occurrence for Jordan, as he had 95+ games of 40+ pts/6+ ast.

4) Instead of simply admitting that your initial math was wrong (and biased), you persisted in your ignorance, as we see above where you ask "what makes it bogus?" News flash: what makes it bogus is that you were wrong.


You then try to act as if Magic would have had some 37 point/10 assist game to counter Jordan's 40+/6+ game. Here are some more facts for you:

Magic only had 6 games of 37+ pts/10+ ast from 1987 through retirement (5 seasons). Now, those seasons were also his highest scoring seasons by far, but let's assume he had 8 more such games from '80-'86. That makes 14 career games of 37+/10+. Yet you're trying to act as though Magic, who had 14 (20 tops) such games in his career could produce a 37+/10+ game on command, yet Jordan, who had 95+ games of 40+/6+ (that's 4-5 times the incidence of Magic's numbers that you cited), would "be lucky" to have such a game in a series.

In short: you're wrong; you're inconsistent.
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:51 AM   #38
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by Niquesports
Where do you get your logic from. If the 80's Celtics had never won people would still be calling them a great team. Let me prove my point. The 60's Lakers were a great team with West and Baylor they just feel short because of the Celtics. Now maybe they dont get called in the top 10 of teams but they sure are in the next 5 of all time great teams many times they would take the celtics to 7 games and lose on a fluke.people remember those teams. I would say the closest team that would be called great were the Suns and Jazz But just making the finals 1 or 2 times and falling short makes your teams legacy fall short.

you proved my point.. it's sad that it's that way.. and titles really make a star to a superstar..

the 60's Lakers were remembered.. but not the TEAM. only West and Baylor. and West won a title in '72.

If Boston never won a championship, I think Bird wouldn't be considered THAT great.. he'd still be popular and everything.. but, he won't be remembered like he is today.. imagine if GP and the sonics won 2 in the 90's. he'd be something now. or If Malone and Ewing also won..

and now that were looking back at these runner-up teams in the 90's.. their legacy is really not that big as of those in the 60's, 70's, 80's.. but I believe at later years.. they will be..
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:17 AM   #39
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

'86 Celtics
'96 Bullz
'84 Lakers
'79 Sixerz
'08 Celticz
'91 Bullz
88' Pistonz
'01 Lakerz

in descending order.
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
No, what makes it bogus is this:

1) You tried to employ some silly math about how Jordan could score 40 points, but Magic could have 24/12, thereby accounting for 48 points, oblivious to the fact that Jordan would also have assists.

ITs funny how you avoid the real issue Jordan didnt avaerage 40 points 6-9 assist Magic did avg. 24 points 12 assist
2) After I pointed out that Jordan would also likely have 5-9 assists to go along with his 40 points, you acted like such games were a rarity for Jordan, waved your hands and acted as if I hadn't made a valid point.
No you didnt make a valid point how many times did jordan have 40 points and 9 assist?
3) I then demonstrated with facts that such games were not a rare occurrence for Jordan, as he had 95+ games of 40+ pts/6+ ast.
ok 95 games in a career would be some what rare. But 6 is a far cry from 9.
4) Instead of simply admitting that your initial math was wrong (and biased), you persisted in your ignorance, as we see above where you ask "what makes it bogus?" News flash: what makes it bogus is that you were wrong.

My ignorance? Lets see you say Jordan would score 40 points and 6-9 assist I question that and then you go to well many times he would score 40 points and have 6 assist why didnt you just say 9 assist from the begining instead of inflating the number to make it look good.What makes it bogus is you tried to inflate the number by saying 6-9 so since you have all the stats how many times did Jordan score 40 points and have 9 assist?

You then try to act as if Magic would have had some 37 point/10 assist game to counter Jordan's 40+/6+ game. Here are some more facts for you:

Magic only had 6 games of 37+ pts/10+ ast from 1987 through retirement (5 seasons). Now, those seasons were also his highest scoring seasons by far, but let's assume he had 8 more such games from '80-'86. That makes 14 career games of 37+/10+. Yet you're trying to act as though Magic, who had 14 (20 tops) such games in his career could produce a 37+/10+ game on command, yet Jordan, who had 95+ games of 40+/6+ (that's 4-5 times the incidence of Magic's numbers that you cited), would "be lucky" to have such a game in a series.

OK so how many times did Jordan have 40 points and 9 assist ????? That is the number you used.
In short: you're wrong; you're inconsistent.


In short I showed how Magic could match Jordan's great production which most would agree and you because you never had the insight to know this jump and try to make this some impossible feat and it would take an act from God for magic to get 24 points and 12 assist yet that was his avg in 87. Can you say Jordan av. 40 points and 6-9 assist ???????????????????.Why did I ask NO HE DIDNT. So your bogus.and wrong
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:21 AM   #41
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by Niquesports
Well when talking about opinions yes it is being played on paper. Its not we gonna get an 87 magic to dress up to play an 95 Jordan. to prove whos right

That's why it's pointless, unless the difference is really big.

The Bulls had a great system going on as a result of years of playing together. Individually, they might look worse but as a team, they're arguably stronger. Are you going to put this into the equation at all?

Why is worthy better than Pippen at those years? At most, they are equal.

What? AC Green and Rodman is not even on the same league in rebounding.How can you say he'll give Rodman fits? Speculation?

A mix of WHO can close the lane for MJ and Pippen?

Cant argue about Kareem though. I love the guy too much.
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:41 AM   #42
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by iamgine
That's why it's pointless, unless the difference is really big.

The Bulls had a great system going on as a result of years of playing together. Individually, they might look worse but as a team, they're arguably stronger. Are you going to put this into the equation at all?

Why is worthy better than Pippen at those years? At most, they are equal.

What? AC Green and Rodman is not even on the same league in rebounding.How can you say he'll give Rodman fits? Speculation?

A mix of WHO can close the lane for MJ and Pippen?

Cant argue about Kareem though. I love the guy too much.


I agree and have never said the Bulls didnt have a great system but that the Lakers as a team were stronger.

I have agreed MJ and Magic and Pippen and Worthy are at best equal.
Lets look at the other players

A.C. Green/Kurt Rambis vs Rodman ok Rodman gets his 12 rebounds Ac and Rambis combine for 10 yet also combine for 12 pts. which isnt far fetched.We know Rodman isnt going to score 12.
Advantage Lakers.

Byron Scott and Michael Cooper vs Ron Harper and Steve Kerr. Scott was much younger and more athletic than Harper and Cooper would defend Jordan which would have to effect Jordan not getting too many 40 point 6-9 assist games.
Advantage lakers

Jabbar vs Luc and Wellington
no need for discussion Advantage Lakers.

My main point is that the lakers could match the Bulls perimeter scoring but the inside scoring advantage of the Lakers would be the difference.
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:47 AM   #43
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by Loki
No, what makes it bogus is this:

1) You tried to employ some silly math about how Jordan could score 40 points, but Magic could have 24/12, thereby accounting for 48 points, oblivious to the fact that Jordan would also have assists.

2) After I pointed out that Jordan would also likely have 5-9 assists to go along with his 40 points, you acted like such games were a rarity for Jordan, waved your hands and acted as if I hadn't made a valid point.

3) I then demonstrated with facts that such games were not a rare occurrence for Jordan, as he had 95+ games of 40+ pts/6+ ast.

4) Instead of simply admitting that your initial math was wrong (and biased), you persisted in your ignorance, as we see above where you ask "what makes it bogus?" News flash: what makes it bogus is that you were wrong.


You then try to act as if Magic would have had some 37 point/10 assist game to counter Jordan's 40+/6+ game. Here are some more facts for you:

Magic only had 6 games of 37+ pts/10+ ast from 1987 through retirement (5 seasons). Now, those seasons were also his highest scoring seasons by far, but let's assume he had 8 more such games from '80-'86. That makes 14 career games of 37+/10+. Yet you're trying to act as though Magic, who had 14 (20 tops) such games in his career could produce a 37+/10+ game on command, yet Jordan, who had 95+ games of 40+/6+ (that's 4-5 times the incidence of Magic's numbers that you cited), would "be lucky" to have such a game in a series.

In short: you're wrong; you're inconsistent.

Since your into math lets look into some numbers.

You used the word rare well by defenition rare is something out of the norm and average would be the norm.

Jordan's playoof avg. is 33 pts. and 5 assist. Far Far short of
40 pts 6-9 assist

Magic's playoof avg 19 pts and 12 assist.
short of 24 but closer than your fiction number of 40-9.

Ok add it up it gives you
Jordan 43 points
Magic 43 points
These are there avg so Its not bogus to say they would match each other output its bogus to differ.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:16 AM   #44
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niquesports
I agree and have never said the Bulls didnt have a great system but that the Lakers as a team were stronger.

I have agreed MJ and Magic and Pippen and Worthy are at best equal.
Lets look at the other players

A.C. Green/Kurt Rambis vs Rodman ok Rodman gets his 12 rebounds Ac and Rambis combine for 10 yet also combine for 12 pts. which isnt far fetched.We know Rodman isnt going to score 12.
Advantage Lakers.

Byron Scott and Michael Cooper vs Ron Harper and Steve Kerr. Scott was much younger and more athletic than Harper and Cooper would defend Jordan which would have to effect Jordan not getting too many 40 point 6-9 assist games.
Advantage lakers

Jabbar vs Luc and Wellington
no need for discussion Advantage Lakers.

My main point is that the lakers could match the Bulls perimeter scoring but the inside scoring advantage of the Lakers would be the difference.

So we are not counting Rodman's 5 - 6 offensive rebounds and don't know how many hustle plays? which lead to at least 6 more possesions. Which lead to less points from the Lakers team and more points for the Bulls? And Rodman doesn't score 0 either.

Bulls also were an excellent defensive team with an arguably better offensive system makes them as a team better than the Lakers.

See, it's anybody's game and I would support the Bulls for winning the series.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:55 AM   #45
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Default Re: The GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME

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Originally Posted by iamgine
So we are not counting Rodman's 5 - 6 offensive rebounds and don't know how many hustle plays? which lead to at least 6 more possesions. Which lead to less points from the Lakers team and more points for the Bulls? And Rodman doesn't score 0 either.

Bulls also were an excellent defensive team with an arguably better offensive system makes them as a team better than the Lakers.

See, it's anybody's game and I would support the Bulls for winning the series.
YOur forgetting Rodman's hustle plays will be matched by AC Green's plus the Bulls never faced a team that had 5 players crashing the boards so instead of Rodmans usual 5-6 offensive rebounds lets say he gets maybe 4-5 .

The Lakers were also a very good defensive team with interchangeable parts. Putting 5 to 6 different players on Jordan /Pippen and Rodman cant see anyone but the 3 defending Worthy.

No its not really anybodies game the lakers were too deep just as athletic yet much stronger in the paint.
Lakers in 6 5 if they have home court advantage.
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