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Old 09-22-2007, 09:42 PM   #16
Doctor K
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

only 1999
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SsKSpurs21
now if he didnt have parish and bird would he have won all those titles as well carrying the celtics...forget beating the lakers, could he get out of the East?
No, they wouldn't have won a title in the 80's likely, but there would be no doubt that a team of:
PG: Dennis Johnson
SG: Danny Ainge
SF: Manu Ginobili (replacing Bird)
PF: Kevin McHale
C: Robert Parish
would go on to win multiple titles in today's league.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

No

Without Larry, Celtics are maybe a contender, not a champion
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:46 PM   #19
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor K
No

Without Larry, Celtics are maybe a contender, not a champion


I was thinking the same thing. No Larry, and Manu flopping all over Boston. No one can replace Bird.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Chocolate
I was thinking the same thing. No Larry, and Manu flopping all over Boston. No one can replace Bird.
Yeah, but were talking about today's league. No way they win in the 80s.
Can it be argued that any Duncan led team wins in the 80s? No Way!

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Old 09-22-2007, 09:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull33
Yeah, but were talking about today's league. No way they win in the 80s.


I'm not so sure they would win today either. It seems like any team with a decent fast break would run them out of the building.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Chocolate
I'm not so sure they would win today either. It seems like any team with a decent fast break would run them out of the building.
Ha, the mid-80s Celts pushed up the tempo all the time. Ainge was super quick, DJ was a great defender and clutch performer, and Ginobli would be doing what he does today. Parish and McHale were premier shot blockers, and were both great defenders. No one on the roster was particularly slow, aside from Walton. This team would be dynasty Spurs part II.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Chocolate
I'm not so sure they would win today either. It seems like any team with a decent fast break would run them out of the building.

Because so many fast break teams have won titles recently?!

McHale was a top 3 all time post scorer. Literally, in terms of his moves on the block. It was a clinic. He never needed to be the guy because of his teammates. People are so quick to dog someone because of their teammates. Part of winning ball is sacrifice. McHale in his prime could easily have taken the Spurs to all the places TD has.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull33
Ha, the mid-80s Celts pushed up the tempo all the time. Ainge was super quick, DJ was a great defender and clutch performer, and Ginobli would be doing what he does today. Parish and McHale were premier shot blockers, and were both great defenders. This team would be dynasty Spurs part II.


Parish and McHale weren't exactly known for their athleticism. My question is: Could they beat a team like the Nets or Suns?
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Chocolate
Parish and McHale weren't exactly known for their athleticism. My question is: Could they beat a team like the Nets or Suns?
My answer: All Day.
The Suns couldn't stop Duncan in the post, so how would they stop a more skilled McHale? Parish would nearly shut down Amare. Dennis was a great defender against Jordan, so he would have no problem containing Nash. Ainge was almost as quick as Barbosa, and still an above average defender. Ginobili and Marion would likely cancel each other out.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

I'm about as big a McHale supporter there is. I saw him live come out from under the hoop and man up on Magic Johnson and James Worthy. I saw him pick up Vinnie Johnson on the break and stay in front of him. The guy was an even better defender than his gaudy numbers suggest. Unfortunately, all of it went down the tubes when played the 86 post season on two stress fractured feet while filled up with cortisone. Coincidentally, it was the same thing that destroyed his then teammate Walton's career when he made a similar run in Portland.

I've always thought he had a lot of similarities to Duncan. But there are a few differences. Duncan's face up jumper game allows him to sit just a touch further from the hoop than McHale was comfortable doing. It's an unusual spot for such a dominant, and efficient post scorer. But what it does is pulls the strong side defense away from the hoop, and makes any doubler come a further distance. And it opens up cutting lanes like crazy. Everyone credits the euro mentallity, and Pop's scheming with Parker and Ginobili's diving cuts to the hoop. But there's not another player in the league with whom those would work. Even the other dominant post scorers sit too close to the hoop. Parker was near the top in the league in pts in the paint a few years ago, and while he's crafty around the hoop, that just doesn't happen if a deep sitter like Shaq is down there. The other major difference is that Duncan's a better passer. A lot of it comes from that positioning he uses. Not only does it free up cutting lanes, but if anyone comes from the weakside to double, they have to cover that extra few feet, which gives him just a bit extra time to skip the ball to the weakside shooters. McHale was the first guy I know of given the nickname blackhole, which is now pretty much used to describe any lowpost player who scores more than 15 a night.

How highly do I think of McHale? He's one of the few guys I who wasn't the man on a title time that I truly believe could have been. He did have a leaders personality, as evidenced by his clashing with Bird during their younger years. It's just tough when you run into such an enormous personality like Bird. And given the choice starting a team between him, Barkley, and Karl Malone, I'd take McHale without hesitating. And I'm pretty sure I'm the only guy who'll say that.


Parish, by the way, I've always felt was a little overrated.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

McHale had a huge injury (fairly?) early in his career and was never the same after that--as a young player, he was a mobile and athletic defender in the Marcus Camby mold, not the Frankenstein's Monster you see in many of the highlights.

So, to me, this is like the Bill Walton thread, in that the "prime" you're talking about is purely hypothetical. Who knows, maybe McHale would have been the GOAT if he'd stayed healthy, but here in reality Duncan's career has surpassed McHale's to the point where almost nobody would bother to argue otherwise.




One more thing--you can't put 80's stats against modern-day stats 1:1. The games were fast and loose back then (especially compared with most Spurs games), and the bad teams then were worse than the bad teams nowadays.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull33
Any reasoning on this assumption?

Because Duncan is better.

Duncan is bigger, making him a better defender and better post player. Duncan has more range, Duncan is more athletic, is a better team player, and most of all, is one of the most unselfish and best passing big men of all time. McHale has nice moves when in the post... he was long and could defend a little... but he had chicken bones and didn't like to pass the ball back out.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull33
My answer: All Day.
The Suns couldn't stop Duncan in the post, so how would they stop a more skilled McHale? Parish would nearly shut down Amare. Dennis was a great defender against Jordan, so he would have no problem containing Nash. Ainge was almost as quick as Barbosa, and still an above average defender. Ginobili and Marion would likely cancel each other out.




Spurs aren't athletic today, but they can get away with it as long as the athletic teams are forced to play under late 90's rules. If the 80's Celts were transported to the current day, I'm sure they'd be lobbying for the same special treatment.

Still, Ainge as quick as Barbosa? Parish shuts down Amare? DJ would have "no problem" containing the Nash P&R?
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:35 PM   #30
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Default Re: Replace Duncan with Prime McHale, how many Championships for the Spurs?

I dont think they would ever get past Shaq and Kobe's Lakers...McHale isnt the defense presence of Duncan...
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