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Old 09-21-2007, 01:30 PM   #16
geeWiz15
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

Quote:
Who starts at the 2 for the wiz then?
PG Daniels
SG Arenas
SF Kirilenko
PF Jamison
C Haywood
6 Millsap
7 Nick Young
8 Giricek
9 Songaila

if you think about it it's an 8-man rotation that makes a lot of sense. the only hole on the team after this trade is really a starting quality center- but what else is new? and with this trade suddenly the Wizards seem to have depth.

guarding swingmen would be a problem though. last year swingmen rarely killed us because we had Deshawn on them. but this is a team with no defensively adequate GF sized players.

this is why I'd push for a second trade for Mardy Collins. I'm not sure what we'd give, but Mardy Collins at the 1 > Daniels because Collins can guard the 2 long-term.

that'd be the ideal situation anyway. the Center spot still sucks donkey balls but everything else looks great.

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Old 09-21-2007, 01:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by JalenRawley
I was going to post this, almost verbatim. Instead, I'll just point out how brilliant saKf is! ;)

Seriously though, why do people keep putting Millsap in trade scenarios? He's not a throw in, he's not filler, he's considered an asset in Utah and you don't give up something of value without getting something of value in return. They would already be giving up Kirilenko, why would they give up -yet another- asset in Millsap without getting something equal in return?

Also, Millsap is young. He might've peaked this year, who knows.. but the amount of his potential to get better increases his value. He's young, he's got plenty of time for improvement, he's shown flashes of being a good player in the league, and they've got three more seasons of him at a dirt cheap salary compared to what he could command on the free agent market.

And Etan Thomas is supposed to be his replacement? Pay MLE money for a center who does less, has less potential, is older, and has already peaked in the league? This guy can't even beat Brendan Haywood out of a starting job, and the Haywood and the coach don't even get along.

Also, Utah's already seen how useless DeShawn Stevenson is. They don't need a second viewing.

+1

Millsap being on the team is part of what makes it ok to lose Kirilenko... He can play the 3 a lot... people don't seem to realize that. When Kirilenko was having problems in the playoffs they played Millsap instead... So trading both Kirilenko AND Millsap is pretty absurd. Right now Millsap is probably worth more than the Jazz's last two first round draft picks (individually), on top of that, he looked very good in the Rocky Mountain Review over the summer... He can be a star some day.

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Old 09-21-2007, 01:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
I mean come on it's not like the Jazz need him. they got Boozer and Okur, both guys can put up 20, and I think both guys DO put up 20, or around there, and get 8-12 boards apiece too. they need a shotblocker off the bench. the Wiz need millsap way more than the Jazz do.

Gotta disagree. When Booz was injured late in regular season, Milsap filled in for like 13 and 10 a night. He's just the insurance they need if Booz or Okur goes down. Wiz could use him, true, but this deal would never happen because Milsap is too sold on Milsap and there's no way Wiz is letting Caron go, his hustle game is too vital to Washington. Stevenson is too important too.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Seriously though, why do people keep putting Millsap in trade scenarios? He's not a throw in, he's not filler, he's considered an asset in Utah and you don't give up something of value without getting something of value in return.
they are getting something in return. they're getting a starting SG and a 3rd big that both fit their team perfectly and that fill needs in return. and they're giving up a player that they do not need by any standard- they've got Boozer and Okur, maybe the best frontcourt in the league. believe me I'm not including him as a throw in. this is a deal for Kiri and Millsap, not Kiri with Millsap for good measure.

Quote:
Seriously though, why do people keep putting Millsap in trade scenarios? He's not a throw in, he's not filler, he's considered an asset in Utah and you don't give up something of value without getting something of value in return.
Deshawn is not useless. Deshawn is the perfect player for that team. he'd be the worst player in the top 6 of the rotation, but he'd be comfortable in that spot, would play his role, hit every open shot, and play well above average defense. that's exactly what Utah's looking for at the 2, and they'd be getting it for 3 mil a year. that's all Utah needs at the 2, but right now they don't have it.

Quote:
And Etan Thomas is supposed to be his replacement? Pay MLE money for a center who does less, has less potential, is older, and has already peaked in the league?
because he's a shotblocking presence, perfectly suited to the 3rd big role, is mature and a leader and brings fiery intangibles. and because you'll need a 3rd big once you get rid of Millsap, and Millsap, like I said, is the dealbreaker in this scenario.

Quote:
Gotta disagree. When Booz was injured late in regular season, Milsap filled in for like 13 and 10 a night.
in how many minutes? if Etan got 30 minutes a night I bet you he'd put up 10/10 with 2 blocks at least.

averaged 6/6 in 19 mins on a team that rarely if ever feeds the post.

Quote:
there's no way Wiz is letting Caron go, his hustle game is too vital to Washington. Stevenson is too important too.
Caron's game is not vital to anything. I love him to DEATH. but we do not need him and that's a fact. Stevenson has proven to be a really good roleplayer, but for a chance to get Millsap and Kirilenko I'm giving him up in a second, and I can't see Utah giving up Kiri and Millsap without filling up their hole at SG with a good player with a roleplayer mentality.

Last edited by geeWiz15 : 09-21-2007 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

i think this is definitely one of the more reasonable AK deals.

butler > ak at this point, but if AK was motivated it wouldn't be the case.

buuuuut ak makes much more money than butler, so you gotta even it out... and when AK has a $17 million payday coming up in a few years, it can't just be a Brewer level player. looking at their roster, it's gotta be millsap... to top it off they get stevenson, who's nothing special but more than serviceable, to play the 2 for them.

Utah wants to move giri-chuck, and utah wants to move thomas... both are slightly overpaid, but they're filling a need on their new team.

but as i said, this kirilenko deal is only the most reasonable deal seen on these boards thus far... which isn't saying much, but... its better than that other crap.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:43 PM   #21
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
they are getting something in return. they're getting a starting SG and a 3rd big that both fit their team perfectly and that fill needs in return. and they're giving up a player that they do not need by any standard- they've got Boozer and Okur, maybe the best frontcourt in the league. believe me I'm not including him as a throw in. this is a deal for Kiri and Millsap, not Kiri with Millsap for good measure.

But they're losing their backup power forward, who also filled in at center, and is slated to do so for at least three more years. They've been working without a worthwhile shooting guard since Jeff Hornacek retired, I'm sure they can wait a little longer.

In the Phoenix/Utah Marion for Kirilenko trade, if Utah said, "Okay, how about Kirilenko and Millsap for Marion and two useless scrubs?" don't you think Phoenix would jump all over that? Getting AK -and- Millsap for Marion? Of course they would! Why? Because it's a two for one; two good players for one good player. Instead of getting Shawn Marion, you get Caron Butler. I don't know too many people that would choose Butler over Marion, and I highly doubt the Jazz would be one of them.

It's a nice idea to try and rape Utah at the Kirilenko fire sale, but it's not going to happen. Utah is coming off of a great season, I'm sure they'd like to make it back to the playoffs again.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by JalenRawley
1)This guy can't even beat Brendan Haywood out of a starting job, and the Haywood and the coach don't even get along.

2)Also, Utah's already seen how useless DeShawn Stevenson is. They don't need a second viewing.

1)What do you mean? Etan was starting for most of the second half of last year and he's starting this season.

2)You obviously didn't see how his shooting percentage and scoring avg went up when one or two of the big 3 was out. He's not a monster player and he has a past, but he's reliable. Orlando really didn't want to let him go.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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But they're losing their backup power forward, who also filled in at center, and is slated to do so for at least three more years.
yeah and in return they're gaining a backup center who also fills in at power forward and is slated to do so for at least 3 more years who is a little worse at scoring and a little better and shotblocking.

I wouldn't even include the Millsap/Etan exchange if it weren't post scoring we needed and shotblocking the Jazz needed. Millsap's the better player but it's not so significant that the Jazz would be devistated as a team, and considering they're getting the best player I can ever see them getting for Kiri and a starting SG at the same time. they'll manage.

Quote:
They've been working without a worthwhile shooting guard since Jeff Hornacek retired, I'm sure they can wait a little longer.
"working" meaning not getting to the finals? working meaning having Derek Fisher guard the other team's SG? this team needs a SG. look at what they're doing playing 4 on 5 every drip down, now imagine if they had a good player at the 2. they'd be unstoppable.

I can honeslty say that if the Jazz did this trade they'd instantly become my favorite team (other than the Wiz of course). they'd be a team utterly without holes and with excellent players at all spots 1-7, needing only a backup PG to complete the puzzle. they're not getting robbed here.

Quote:
n the Phoenix/Utah Marion for Kirilenko trade, if Utah said, "Okay, how about Kirilenko and Millsap for Marion and two useless scrubs?" don't you think Phoenix would jump all over that? Getting AK -and- Millsap for Marion? Of course they would! Why? Because it's a two for one; two good players for one good player. Instead of getting Shawn Marion, you get Caron Butler.
the whole basis of your opinion is wrong. Deshawn and Etan are both quality roleplayers (the only quality roleplayers the Wizards have) who would be precisely in their element on the Jazz. neither player is as good as Millsap but combined they're about equal, just like Kiri and Butler are about equal with Butler's strengths fitting the Jazz and Kiri's fitting the Wizards, Deshawn's and Etan's strengths fit the Jazz and Millsap's fit the Wizards.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:56 PM   #24
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by DoubleTech
i think this is definitely one of the more reasonable AK deals.

butler > ak at this point, but if AK was motivated it wouldn't be the case.

buuuuut ak makes much more money than butler, so you gotta even it out... and when AK has a $17 million payday coming up in a few years, it can't just be a Brewer level player. looking at their roster, it's gotta be millsap... to top it off they get stevenson, who's nothing special but more than serviceable, to play the 2 for them.

Utah wants to move giri-chuck, and utah wants to move thomas... both are slightly overpaid, but they're filling a need on their new team.

but as i said, this kirilenko deal is only the most reasonable deal seen on these boards thus far... which isn't saying much, but... its better than that other crap.

We are not looking to get to move Giricek for one thing... he'd be part of a trade that brought in something the Jazz wanted, but they are not looking to move him... On top of that... You do realize that Utah traded Giricek for Stephenson... and that Utah does not want Deshawn back, we like Giricek much better, especially after Giricek did a pretty good job at the end of last year.

Millsap is worth a lot more to the Jazz than Thomas would be... And AK for Butler... well Butler has been moved around to 3 teams... looks like he's missed a lot of games... shoots an unimpressive 43% fg... and doesn't appear to do a whole lot else (I've only watched him a few times, he just seemed ok/good)... I think I'd rather have Millsap. I mean... I think if their salaries matched (I know they don't)... that it would be a straight across type of trade with filler thrown in.. especially given Millsap's potential, and break-out play in the Rocky Mountain Review.

Thomas is alright, we could use him... but we've got a promising guy from the Ukraine... He's a project it looks like... but I think he's gonna earn a few minutes.

Butler for AK straight across is possible... Millsap is out of the question.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
Deshawn is not useless. Deshawn is the perfect player for that team. he'd be the worst player in the top 6 of the rotation, but he'd be comfortable in that spot, would play his role, hit every open shot, and play well above average defense. that's exactly what Utah's looking for at the 2, and they'd be getting it for 3 mil a year. that's all Utah needs at the 2, but right now they don't have it.

DeShawn isn't useless? What has he done? Did he even make a shot in the playoffs last year? He was beyond useless in Utah. He was useless in Orlando, and he's useless in Washington. He hasn't done anything except for talk. Where's Mr. 50's 50% shooting now? Do you honestly think that -anyone- wants DeShawn Stevenson? If they did, they could've had him for pennies on the dollar when he screwed up the Orlando situation. Washington got him, Washington can have him. Give me CJ Miles, Morris Almond, or hell, give me Chris Morris over DeShawn Stevenson, -any- day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeWiz15
because he's a shotblocking presence, perfectly suited to the 3rd big role, is mature and a leader and brings fiery intangibles. and because you'll need a 3rd big once you get rid of Millsap, and Millsap, like I said, is the dealbreaker in this scenario.

That's right, Millsap is the dealbreaker. Utah would refuse to trade Millsap, and therefore break the deal. Etan can't even break the starting lineup convincingly in Washington where they desperately need a center. Millsap could. So, why would you want to downgrade to Etan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeWiz15
in how many minutes? if Etan got 30 minutes a night I bet you he'd put up 10/10 with 2 blocks at least.

Then why isn't Etan your starting center in Wizardland?

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeWiz15
Caron's game is not vital to anything. I love him to DEATH. but we do not need him and that's a fact. Stevenson has proven to be a really good roleplayer, but for a chance to get Millsap and Kirilenko I'm giving him up in a second, and I can't see Utah giving up Kiri and Millsap without filling up their hole at SG with a good player with a roleplayer mentality.

That's just it, Caron's game isn't really vital to anything, anywhere. He's not the perfect fit in Utah either, even though Utah does need a two. And if Utah does get rid of Kirilenko, they'll need a three as well since that's where he's been playing.

Basically, it boils down to this:

You want Utah to give up a young, athletic, jack of all trades big man and another young, athletic big man who showed a lot of promise in just -one- year on a good team that went to the second round in the Western Conference, and in return you want to give them a well rounded swingman, a roleplayer who they've already gotten rid off and want nothing to do with, and an inconsistent big man who is on the downside of a very uninspired career.

And you're surprised when people say "no way"?
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:12 PM   #26
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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That's right, Millsap is the dealbreaker. Utah would refuse to trade Millsap, and therefore break the deal. Etan can't even break the starting lineup convincingly in Washington where they desperately need a center. Millsap could. So, why would you want to downgrade to Etan?
if Millsap were transplanted onto the Wizards roster he wouldn't start either.

Quote:
DeShawn isn't useless? What has he done? Did he even make a shot in the playoffs last year? He was beyond useless in Utah. He was useless in Orlando, and he's useless in Washington. He hasn't done anything except for talk. Where's Mr. 50's 50% shooting now? Do you honestly think that -anyone- wants DeShawn Stevenson? If they did, they could've had him for pennies on the dollar when he screwed up the Orlando situation. Washington got him, Washington can have him. Give me CJ Miles, Morris Almond, or hell, give me Chris Morris over DeShawn Stevenson, -any- day.
if you can find me a Magic or Wizards fan who would agree with you, then we can talk. until then you gotta come to terms with the fact that Deshawn has found his niche since leaving Utah and that he'd be an upgrade over all the guys you listed, at least for the time being.

Quote:
Then why isn't Etan your starting center in Wizardland?
because of Brendan Haywood's self esteem. seriously.

when haywood comes off the bench he is horrible. Etan's the same player whether he's starting or not. anyway I'm not trying to tell you Etan's starter quality. but he is 3rd big-quality.

Quote:
That's just it, Caron's game isn't really vital to anything, anywhere. He's not the perfect fit in Utah either,
oh? Utah doesn't want or need a guy who will put up 18-20ppg with no plays drawn up for him and will be thrilled to do it? I have a hard time believing that.

and the fact that you think Caron Butler is a SG and acquiring him would leave a hole at the 3 leaves me with the impression you don't really know anything about any of Washington's players involved. it gives me the impression you haven't seen any of these guys play since they came to Washington, and that anything you say about them is invalid.

Quote:
You want Utah to give up a young, athletic, jack of all trades big man and another young, athletic big man who showed a lot of promise in just -one- year on a good team that went to the second round in the Western Conference, and in return you want to give them a well rounded swingman, a roleplayer who they've already gotten rid off and want nothing to do with, and an inconsistent big man who is on the downside of a very uninspired career.
that's a really good objective view of the situation. no bias in it at all. you really stated the scenario honestly, there. well done. you should edit wikipedia. "Abortion: abortion is an issue in which baby-killing psychos want to kill all our unborn children."

Quote:
And you're surprised when people say "no way"?
people as a whole aren't saying anything. opinions on this trade are quite ambivalent all around, and it seems like the people who don't like it are Jazz fans who don't know anything about the players they would be receiving.

not like this deal is some cure-all, but neither team is getting ripped off, period (notwithstanding if Millsap turns into some kinda monster, but I can't see him ever getting more than 16/10 in a starting role) whether the trade is worth doing or not is the question. whether Utah would just be better off letting Kiri go and keeping the money and Millsap's potential is the question. this trade does not make Utah worse from where they were last year. it just doesn't. if anything, there's a chance the Wizards get worse, and when I was making this trade, I almost took it back because the player the Wizards are getting back has a max contract, is always injured, is an insecure whiner, has no real practiced skills, and took the last season off.

Last edited by geeWiz15 : 09-21-2007 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

The reality of this trade is:

1) Utah's in love with Milsap and his potential. True, he hasn't done a lot yet, but he was a rookie. That said, he's one of those guys you look at with googly-eyes just wondering what he's going to be able to do in the future. The Jazz won't trade him unless they get someone similiar (i.e. TONS of potential for nearly no pay).

2) DeShawn for Giricek? That's happened before, and it isn't going to switch back. Utah never really looked back after pulling the trigger on that trade.

3) Etan and Caron look good. The Jazz would certainly give AK and Giri away. This puzzle just has too many pieces (Deshawn and milsap).
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:43 PM   #28
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by Darkess

3) Etan and Caron look good. The Jazz would certainly give AK and Giri away. This puzzle just has too many pieces (Deshawn and milsap).

But the hole point for Washington is to get Millsap too. Why would Washington trade two players for two worse players?


Anyway, I'm sticking with the Antawn Jamison for Kirilenko deal. That makes sense to me.
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Anyway, I'm sticking with the Antawn Jamison for Kirilenko deal. That makes sense to me.

Yeah, I do that one if I'm Utah..
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Kirilenko for Butler

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Originally Posted by Chalkmaze
Yeah, I do that one if I'm Utah..

I think you guys would be better off with Butler then Jamison...But tha trade wouldnt work..

Butler is just a great competitor and the type that will really fit in with how Utah plays..He will finally add some defense, is a good mid range shooter and slasher...Plus he fits in with how Deron and Boozer play, they all seem to have that same really competitve spirit...

I really like the Jazz and how they play...adding Butler for AK(not possible bc contracts) would make Utah imo better then Dallas and right there with Phx..
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