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Old 09-21-2007, 03:30 PM   #46
picc84
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by John Starks
Please explain how I am being disingeuous...I thought I was being forthright.

"Maybe the ONLY people allowed to rank players are guys who have League pass and watch is obsessively all season long"

Thats not what I said or meant, and you know it.

If you'd never seen Ray Allen play, only knew what people said, then yes I would say you were not in a position to have a personally formed, autonomous opinion of where he ranks. Your opinion would in fact be someone else's. Shawn Marion is widely regarded as one of the top forwards in the league, and was even considered for mvp status briefly a few years ago. I personally think he's complete crap garbage. If I had never seen him play, that wouldnt be my opinion. My opinion of him would be as a top forward in the league, and it wouldnt be mine, it would be someone else's.
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Old 09-21-2007, 03:33 PM   #47
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

I've never seen Bob Cousy play. Never seen Nate Archibald, Rick Barry, Oscar Robertson, or Dan Issel play. I know what everyone says about them. I've seen sporadic highlights on nbatv. I know what their approximate stats were. Do I feel comfortable judging who is better between them and players like Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, and Gary Payton? Absolutely not. And I would never try to. Why should I? My opinion is going to be invariably different from most other, and why wouldnt it be? Its different on just about everything else.
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Old 09-21-2007, 03:36 PM   #48
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by picc84

All i'm saying is that to have a truly genuine sense of the quality of something and how it works, you have to see it for yourself. Having something described to you, seeing stats, and hearing other people's opinions is something that goes on around here every day, and we still ALL have different ideas of who is better than who nowadays, because we can see them for ourselves.

Then EVERYONE's ability to evaluate something is severely limited. Only so many hours in a day and only so much material out there.

I disagree with the entire premise. Certainly seeing somethign gives you more information - but I read easily a dozen times a season I see a box score after a game I've wachted that surprises me in some form. (Wait -Marion had 15 rebounds - I barely even noticed him).

We can read accounts and digest stats and get an understanding of what happened. Seeing it adds to our collective information -- but we can know about things without seeing them.

I do not know why we can only evaluate the things we see.
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Old 09-21-2007, 03:43 PM   #49
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by picc84
"Maybe the ONLY people allowed to rank players are guys who have League pass and watch is obsessively all season long"

Thats not what I said or meant, and you know it.

Please don't tell me what I know - I disagree with the proposition of this thread. I disagree that you need to personally see a player perform to be able to evaluate him. Personally seeing a player adds to the total information you have, with stats and reports, etc. Its not the only and its really not even the best method.

My Ray Allen point is simply that we can apply this thread ot older payers and modern players because the VAST MAJORITY of us don't see that many players play that often.

If we limit our opinions to the players we've seen enough to form an opinion, then -- well - we wouldn't have that many opinions.

...and who is the police officer to tell us how many times I have to see a playerbefore I' allowed to form an opinion. Is it once. twice - a dozen, one for every yearthe guy played? What's the rule.
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Old 09-22-2007, 06:20 PM   #50
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by picc84
I've seen Bird play plenty. If someone had never seen him play, I would say yes, they cannot seriously contend to KNOW whether or not he is better than some other all-time great they have seen.

people on this forum think that today's player's are getting the short end of the stick because people are too attached to yesterday's greats to see how incredible players like Kobe Bryant and LeBron James are, but I really see it as the other way around. Great players from the past are constantly either devalued for playing in a so-called weak era or forgotten alltogether by people who don't understand or respect the history of the game. So here is another qualification you need in order to make a case for what you already know to be true, eg; Julius Erving was a great basketball player. That is common knowledge. You cannot refute that. There is too much evidence. It seems like you are trying to inflate the value of today's NBA fans by saying that they know more about the actual greatness of today's players simply because they can watch them all the time. The only thing we actually know about LeBron James is that he has potential. he has to achieve the same successes as players from the past to measure up to them.
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Old 09-22-2007, 11:33 PM   #51
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

More like, how can people rate players when they haven't even experienced the ERA. It's stupid little brats in today's age that think today's era is "better" ( : ) than it was. While reality explains otherwise, we'll always have morons rating McGrady and Kobe higher than Wilt and Russell.

Not surprisingly, these kids were all born after 1985
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