Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-21-2007, 01:46 AM   #31
haji_d_robertas
Good High School Starter
 
haji_d_robertas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
haji_d_robertas has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
I say this regarding players from early, early eras. A lot of people make ranking lists using players they've probably never seen play, or have only minimally done so. I've seen Wilt highlights, Bob Cousy highlights, etc. but I wouldnt say i've seen near enough to make a guess thats anything but uneducated conjecture about how good they were compared to other players who i've seen much, much more.

Its like a 14 year old ranking Larry Bird when all he's seen play in his lifetime has been players from the latest era. Its going by reputation and common opinion instead of making an informed decision. With the lack of gametaping from the early era's compared to now, its not as much a matter of just not taking the time to watch the games, but I still dont get when people give their definitive rankings and include players they've barely ever seen play.

That's your argument? You know that there are still people around who have been watching the game for 60 years, right? Why all of a sudden do we discard their wisdom and decide that because we haven't seen certain players play, they no longer can be ranked? Common opinion says Bird was a great baller. He has the stats and the titles to prove it. He has eyewitnesses from every game he ever played still around today. They're all convinced. But now because you haven't actually seen him play, we should start to think about ranking LeBron or Kobe above him on some all time greats list. What's so informed about that?
haji_d_robertas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 02:01 AM   #32
JtotheIzzo
The Future is Now
 
JtotheIzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wolviapolis
Posts: 13,994
JtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableJtotheIzzo is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

JtotheIzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 06:47 AM   #33
jo3y91
lebron stole my shoes!
 
jo3y91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wit yo mamma
Posts: 1,348
jo3y91 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
You need at least 5 years experience to be on that list, I told you before.
oh i thought it was when there in there 5th year.
jo3y91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 08:53 AM   #34
mongePR(kb24)
kb24 to boston
 
mongePR(kb24)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,310
mongePR(kb24) has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

wow i just remembered when some guys were debating that bob cousy is better than kobe.. lol ..just to see kobe in the lowest spot aviable!
mongePR(kb24) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 09:03 AM   #35
John Starks
National High School Star
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,983
John Starks has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Ray Alllen has been in the league for 10 years. He's not an all-time great, but an important player for his generation.

I haven't seen him play more than a dozen games (AS Games don't really count). I bet I haven't seen 10 NBA games featuring Ray Allen. I bet, aside from Knicks and players regularly deep into the playoffs - I haven't seen any player more than 15 times in their entire career.

So how can I rank anybody besides Knicks, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Dirk and alike?

Maybe the ONLY people allowed to rank players are guys who have League pass and watch is obsessively all season long -- because you gotta wathc every player before you rank them.
John Starks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 09:10 AM   #36
RainierBeachPoet
NEVER forget da SONICS
 
RainierBeachPoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: seattle
Posts: 6,877
RainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableRainierBeachPoet is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

good discussion on many different levels

i would add the following:
  • first hand accounts ought to be more highly considered (but are not infallable)
  • the less a player has been seen/read about, the more one's opinion ought to be qualified
  • the more one has read/researched, especially biographies, the players or teams, the better his opinion
  • it is good to pay attention to "crossover opinions". when wilt/russ/frazier/bird/magic say something about players because of THEIR experience, i would trust their opinion more than the conjecture i see here at ish (and my own!) because they played the game
RainierBeachPoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 10:09 AM   #37
Thorpesaurous
NBA rookie of the year
 
Thorpesaurous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,208
Thorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

All the data you can collect is going to be tainted.
Player's complimenting other players is almost always done through the prism of the media, and the dreaded "media-speak" that generates things like "both teams played hard".
Highlight reels are just that, highlights, you're not going to see many flaws in a highlight reel.
Game tape just doesn't exist for much stuff older then 1980, and even after that most of what's out there is local stuff that you really couldn't get your hands on anyway.
Anything on ESPN classic, or the NBA Network is handpicked to showcase superior performances, they're not pulling out a game to show Wilt go for 19 and 8.
Books are almost always written because of some inherent opinion of the subject to begin with, either positive or negative, otherwise the authors would have never started.
The only things that aren't tainted explicitly are stats, yet they hide huge chunks of a players impact.

With all this said, that's still a ton of sources to gather data from. Some combination of all those things should give you at least a sense of what a player is.

Personally, I like era books. I strongly suggest:
Let Me Tell You a Story, as Told by Red Aurbach.
The City Game: Hoops from the Playground to the Garden - it discusses a lot of the early 70s street basketball being played in NY by pro level players in the summer.
Wilt vs Russell: The Golden Age of Basketball.
Charlie Rosen has a book out about the 72 Lakers with the win streak, that chronicles the whole season. It's really well done, but I can't recall the title at the moment.
The Last Banner, about the 86 Celtics.
I've got to check my shelves when I get home from work. I'll post some others. But these larger stories about whole teams and seasons usually give a bigger perspective than a bio.
Thorpesaurous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 10:12 AM   #38
Thorpesaurous
NBA rookie of the year
 
Thorpesaurous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,208
Thorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

What I meant with all that by the way, is that while it's certainly flawed, it makes a lot more sense to try and develop a sense of this stuff than to pretend the time someones sneakers ever squeaked on hardwood was the time you heard it. It gives you a fuller appreciation for what's going on now. And to me, there's too much attention to better and worse than different. Most player rankings in my mind go in tiers anyway.
Thorpesaurous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 02:35 PM   #40
Thorpesaurous
NBA rookie of the year
 
Thorpesaurous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,208
Thorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableThorpesaurous is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Guys, i'm talking about comparing these players to guys who they are constantly compared to *now*. Guys you've seen play over and over again, compared to guys you've seen a highlight reel of or read a reflective book of from earlier. If you've seen 300 Kareem Laker games, and no Wilt games at all besides some NBA Legend reel clips, how can you seriously claim to *know* who is better?

There's actually a pretty good book on that too:

Wilt, 1962, The Night of 100 Points

I read it about a year ago. I got it from Costco for like 9 bucks. It's got first hand accounts from players, coaches, media guys, and some fans who were there. I think their was a ref in there too. Not a bad read.
Thorpesaurous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 03:16 PM   #41
picc84
3-time NBA All-Star
 
picc84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wash. D.C.
Posts: 8,676
picc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by haji_d_robertas
That's your argument? You know that there are still people around who have been watching the game for 60 years, right? Why all of a sudden do we discard their wisdom and decide that because we haven't seen certain players play, they no longer can be ranked? Common opinion says Bird was a great baller. He has the stats and the titles to prove it. He has eyewitnesses from every game he ever played still around today. They're all convinced. But now because you haven't actually seen him play, we should start to think about ranking LeBron or Kobe above him on some all time greats list. What's so informed about that?

I've seen Bird play plenty. If someone had never seen him play, I would say yes, they cannot seriously contend to KNOW whether or not he is better than some other all-time great they have seen.
picc84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 03:17 PM   #42
picc84
3-time NBA All-Star
 
picc84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wash. D.C.
Posts: 8,676
picc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
Ray Alllen has been in the league for 10 years. He's not an all-time great, but an important player for his generation.

I haven't seen him play more than a dozen games (AS Games don't really count). I bet I haven't seen 10 NBA games featuring Ray Allen. I bet, aside from Knicks and players regularly deep into the playoffs - I haven't seen any player more than 15 times in their entire career.

So how can I rank anybody besides Knicks, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Dirk and alike?

Maybe the ONLY people allowed to rank players are guys who have League pass and watch is obsessively all season long -- because you gotta wathc every player before you rank them.

Way to be disingenuous.
picc84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 03:19 PM   #43
KWALI
erudite
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,112
KWALI has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
I say this regarding players from early, early eras. A lot of people make ranking lists using players they've probably never seen play, or have only minimally done so. I've seen Wilt highlights, Bob Cousy highlights, etc. but I wouldnt say i've seen near enough to make a guess thats anything but uneducated conjecture about how good they were compared to other players who i've seen much, much more.

Its like a 14 year old ranking Larry Bird when all he's seen play in his lifetime has been players from the latest era. Its going by reputation and common opinion instead of making an informed decision. With the lack of gametaping from the early era's compared to now, its not as much a matter of just not taking the time to watch the games, but I still dont get when people give their definitive rankings and include players they've barely ever seen play.

They are called accomplishments....what each player accomplished is recorded and based on that we know Bob Cousy was more accomplished than Brent Price.......now I don't really go on and on about players I have never seen but accomplishments and other reports give you an idea .
KWALI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 03:20 PM   #44
John Starks
National High School Star
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,983
John Starks has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
Way to be disingenuous.

Please explain how I am being disingeuous...I thought I was being forthright.
John Starks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 03:23 PM   #45
picc84
3-time NBA All-Star
 
picc84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wash. D.C.
Posts: 8,676
picc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation herepicc84 has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korki Buchek
I agree with the post starter.

This is especially true when it comes to people mentioning Wilt's 100 point game. Noone has seen that game, since no tape of it exists, yet people mention it only cause it sounds good. But for all they know Wilt could've scored all 100 of the points while standing under the hoop, his teammates constantly stealing the ball and passing it to him for completely wide open layups/dunks. Of course, this didn't happen, but people really don't know how he scored, only that he scored 100.

Thats partly what I mean. People KNOW Wilts 100 game was, for example, better than Kobe's 81 game, and it may very well have been. But people didnt see it, they only know he scored 100 points. They didnt see his team intentionally fouling the other team so they could get the ball back to him with as much time left as possible, or some of the other things that went on.

All i'm saying is that to have a truly genuine sense of the quality of something and how it works, you have to see it for yourself. Having something described to you, seeing stats, and hearing other people's opinions is something that goes on around here every day, and we still ALL have different ideas of who is better than who nowadays, because we can see them for ourselves.
picc84 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:19 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy