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Old 09-20-2007, 05:21 PM   #16
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

You don't have to watch 50 full games of a player to gain knowledge on them. Some gametape is good enough. No, not 3 minute game tape you find on Youtube. More than that. That's really all it takes to know the basics of how a player plays. In the future, people can look back on Kobe when they never saw him play live, and look at his 81 point game. That pretty much sums up his gameplay. Jumpshooting, slashing, getting to the line, overall amazing scorer. Same can be said for players like Artis Gilmore who played in the 70's and 80's and most people on ISH never saw him play live. Watch some simple but semi-lengthy gametape and you can tell how he plays - post up moves, hookshots, garbage buckets, defensive presence, physical player, good passer. You don't need to watch hours and hours of footage and be able to write an essay on a player to know enough about them to discuss it.

Ranking them? There's a limit, that's half the reason I've stopped voting in Kizzle's threads, because most of the players being voted in now (Issel, Arizin, etc) I haven't seen play much, so I don't even bother putting up an argument when I know I have almost no information to back myself up.

People who just go on Basketball Reference and look up stats and post them and act like they know about older NBA players, that's just plain wrong. You Basketball Refense copy 'n pasters know who you are. That's when you shouldn't talk about players you've never seen play, that's just judging them on their stats. If you can't find any gametape of a player, at least ask around to older NBA fans who know what the player is like and try to get a general discription of how they played.

Either that, or do some research. No, not basketball reference copy and paste, and reading a couple of sentences. I mean real research, as in looking up every last bit of information you can find and reading pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs about them. You don't really know the player enough if all you're doing is looking up his stats and reading a few sentences about him. Read some articles, essays, anything. Something lengthy and descriptive, not something short and brief. I don't talk about players that I've never seen play live unless I know the player very well, and some ISH posters seem to think copying and pasting stats is enough to label them as knowledgable in basketball history. It's more than that, it's footage, articles, research, books, etc. If you don't know a lot about the player, don't talk about them, period.

But hey, afterall, it's the discussion of old-school NBA players that adds to ISH's greatness. The forum wouldn't be as good if all we talked about was 2000's basketball. The younger guys learn more about the older basketball players, the older posters can discuss things from the older basketball years, and the younger guys with a lot of info about older players can pitch into the conversation a bit, too.

It's ISH's multi-era discussions that makes the forum better.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by dejordan
in that case you should never vote in any all-time list.

I don't. Not to those pertaining to players I havent seen.

I'll respond to more later, after I read it.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Have you done a similar thread before? There have been quite a few. Anyhow, I don't see why this is such a bother.

Ranking basketball players has to be much easier than doing something like Michael Hart's ranking of the 100 most influential people in history. He has Jesus on his list, and he never witnessed Jesus' preachings, and who even knows if there ever was such a person. I read a book that ranked the 100 most influential scientists in history, too. There have been many such rankings--it seems to have become very popular recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
Relying on secondhand info is not a good way to gauge a players abilities. Look at how different the opinions are on players we ALL see EVERY day during the reg season is, on this board alone.
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I think if you havent seen someone play, just dont comment on them. You dont know - I know there's plenty of players in the ISH top 100 players list i've barely seen, never seen, and some i've never heard of. I wouldnt dream of trying to include them in any list I was making.
Johndeergreen or someone made a similar agument before--maybe it was you. If you extend this argument to general history, especially ancient history (where all witnesses are long dead), then it should be clear that it's kind of an absurd argument. You don't want no one teaching ancient history, I assume.

Now, as far as those who are very uninformed makings rankings involving players that have little to no knowledge of is a valid argument. Your decision not to do so is fine.

But, if you research a player, look at the stats and honors, read the history books and biographies, see what primary sources have to say, and maybe catch some old game footage (and, of course, understand basketball), then you'll have an understanding of the player. It won't be a complete understanding, but that's impossible. I think it's sufficient knowledge to have some fun with ranking players.

I feel that I have enough understanding to participate in something like the ISH 100 Greatest list. Sure, there's more I could learn (and I want to), and I'm not overly confident in my knowledge, but it's sufficient for a rather non-serious, fun activity. I'll talk about Joe Fulks, for example, all I want. I'm not making anything up when I'm doing this. I'm merely talking about what I know, what I understand. Sure, there are aspects of his game that I'm unaware of, but that happens with distance of time.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Johndeergreen or someone made a similar agument before--maybe it was you. If you extend this argument to general history, especially ancient history (where all witnesses are long dead), then it should be clear that it's kind of an absurd argument. You don't want no one teaching ancient history, I assume.
Why are you bringing this back? I already thoroughly debunked this comparision before.

People who teach ancient history have put YEARS of their lives into learning every last nook and cranny of the culture through all available resources. People who say Paul Arizin was great looked at his stats on basketball reference. There's nothing wrong with commenting on something when, if you haven't seen it, you've thoroughly researched the matter. But that never happens here. You have to realize how flawed the argument you're making is.

Last edited by johndeeregreen : 09-20-2007 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
What spot on the court did Bird make the most things happen from, offensively?
I don't know every single great players sweet spots on the court. But for Bird, I'll have to say the left side of the court. I've seen him from the left and the top of the key a lot doing things.

I know the steal from Zeke was on the left side, as was 2 three-pointers he made against Portland and a three against Dallas.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

You think nobody talking about historical figures without doing years of research? Cant compare teachers who are paid to be experts and teach others to also be experts to some people casually discussing an issue online.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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I don't know every single great players sweet spots on the court. But for Bird, I'll have to say the left side of the court. I've seen him from the left and the top of the key a lot doing things.
Exactly, he did wonders out of the elbows. But you aren't going to figure that out from basketball-reference. You need to either watch him play or extensively research his game before you can speak on it.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Why are you bringing this back? I already thoroughly debunked this comparision before.

People who teach ancient history have put YEARS of their lives into learning every last nook and cranny of the culture through all available resources. People who say Paul Arizin was great looked at his stats on basketball reference. There's nothing wrong with commenting on something when, if you haven't seen it, you've thoroughly researched the matter. But that never happens here. You have to realize how flawed the argument you're making is.

I agree with Kblaze's response.
Quote:
You think nobody talking about historical figures without doing years of research? Cant compare teachers who are paid to be experts and teach others to also be experts to some people casually discussing an issue online.

Additionally, the original poster of this thread made a similar argument to yours, so I replied again.

Look at what dejordan and richie said about researching a player from the past. I've done that, and it's clear that at least a few others around here have to. Those who just look at some stats, come to unfounded conclusions and then start preaching on it--fine, criticize them. But, you don't have to spend years, get a degree in it, or whatever on a past player to be able to discuss a past player in an informed way on a message board. Very different from teaching ancient history, like Kblaze said.

You and the original poster here seemed to take your complaint too far, which is where I think my comparison is relevant as a demonstration of why it's too far. So, both of your complaints are valid when you're complaining about the completely or nearly completely uninformed ranking/talking about past players, but you both went on to complain about anyone who didn't witness it firsthand ranking/talking about past players--that's the part that's too far.
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:10 PM   #24
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
A 19 yearold would have been 4 at what I consider Jordans peak(about 1992). You really think more than half of ISH is over 19? Id say you need to be at least 23 or so to really remember Jordan at his best. Id bet anything that less than 50% of ISH is under 23.

If you want to see Jordan at his peak, all you have to do is turn to nbatv or espnclassic at any time during the day, buy the ludicrously extensive video collection of him playing, or log on to youtube. Its as easy as watching cartoons. You dont need to "remember" Jordan at his best. You can WATCH him, NOW.

Can you do that for Wilt, Cousy, etc.? NO.

Quote:
And yes...people younger than that could still know its true. At some point common sense is evidence enough. You think you need to see Jordan to know he was better than say....nate robinson? Of course not. how about Jason Richardson? I wouldnt say so. Highlights, classic games, and legacy alone could tell you who was better.

At what point does "You cant know someone you didnt see is better than someone you did" stop being the case? Admit it or not you know there is a limit. I wouldnt need to see 25-27 yearold Shaq play live to know hes better than Jason Collins. We all know this. Just a matter of where you set that limit.

Accept it or not...you DONT need to see some players to know they are better than others. And once you open up the possibility it just comes down to where you choose to set the limit on who can just be ranked over others on common sense. But once you open that up its not relly for you to tell anyone else where to set their limit.

Jezus chrizt. I'm talking about GOAT lists pitting Wilt against Kareem against Shaq against Duncan, and you're talking about freaking JASON COLLINS. I dont need to eat filet mignon to know its better than rat **** either, but I wouldnt know if its better than lobster, would I.

Quote:
You have not seen Wilt on regular basis in his prime. If you can add him or Greg Osterteg to your favorite team who do you want? You tell me you take Greg or that you dont know enough to decide and I know youre flat out lying.

Are you serious?

Last edited by picc84 : 09-20-2007 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Guys, i'm talking about comparing these players to guys who they are constantly compared to *now*. Guys you've seen play over and over again, compared to guys you've seen a highlight reel of or read a reflective book of from earlier. If you've seen 300 Kareem Laker games, and no Wilt games at all besides some NBA Legend reel clips, how can you seriously claim to *know* who is better?
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
If you want to see Jordan at his peak, all you have to do is turn to nbatv or espnclassic at any time during the day, buy the ludicrously extensive video collection of him playing, or log on to youtube. Its as easy as watching cartoons. You dont need to "remember" Jordan at his best. You can WATCH him, NOW.

Can you do that for Wilt, Cousy, etc.? NO.

And yet even with the ability to do it most kids dont seem to know **** about him beyond espn highlights. Really think most fans are ordering hundreds of dollars of DVD and watching hours and hours of game footage? Not even most people here do that.

Besides there is just as much on Bird and Magic if you want to look. Just off the top of my head I can think of about 4 NBA home videos decicated to the 80s Celtics, Bird is also covered on NBA guts and glory, NBa superstars, Ultimate NBA, NBA at 50, and has his own DVD including many of his best games and hours of highlights in addition to the Celtics dynasty DVD. Yet when I post a Bird video kids seem suprised he could dunk pretty well. Posted a game and people were suprised by his courtvision.

What does that tell me? That the mere existance of footage and the chance ot watch legends doesnt mean most people do it. From some of the opinions ive read here people under about 23 or 24 seem almost as uninformed about MJ as Wilt.

Speaking of which....

Im 100% sure ive seen Wilt play more than ive seen Chris Bosh, David West, Rashard Lewis, or Kevin Martin play. Ive seen full games of the 70 finals, ive seen full games from 67 and 68 on mixmakers, ive seen half of some others(be suprised what you can find on a program like Emule). Ive seen the game vs the Bucks where the 33 game win streak was snapped. Ive seen 2 allstar games he was in. Ive seen a quarter or so of a game he played at Kansas. Ive seen game 7 of the 69 finals. Ive seen his greatest sports legend VHS with like 30-45 minutes of footage and basically everything ever put out on him on video in modern times. Ive seen every second of what NBA.com has. Ive probably seen a combined 3-4 hours on the guy at least not evem counting the overlap that comes from watching different version of the same highlights. Ive seen Wilt play more than ive seen Dwight Howard, Greg Oden, or Joakim Noah. Im just the kind of person who is interested in such things.

If you care to look a lot of the old guys have a lot out there to watch. At least as much as you could see from most of the players in the league in a single season. I promise you...without league pass nobody outside Wisconsin will see more of Andrew Bogut this year than they could of Wilt, Russell, and Kareem if they wanted to.

More a matter of caring to do it than anything.
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by RidonKs
You can only know so much from highlights. I didn't start watching ball until 98, and back then I only saw a few games a year. 2000 I started watching a bit more, and it wasn't until a few years ago that I actually started following it a lot. I now have access to a lot of Hardwood Classics games, and I've been watching some Magic and Bird a lot lately.
Ah, I understand now why you think so highly of Kobe Bryant and the rest of this era of basketball.
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

Quote:
Jezus chrizt. I'm talking about GOAT lists pitting Wilt against Kareem against Shaq against Duncan, and you're talking about freaking JASON COLLINS. I dont need to eat filet mignon to know its better than rat **** either, but I wouldnt know if its better than lobster, would I.

Considering that better is just your opinion on what you like...yes. you easily could. A lot of people liking it doesnt mean you arent sure you wont.

What it comes down to is how far youre willing to take the same concept. You know Wilt is better than Collins even though you have not seen him. Other might say hes better than a guy like Zo....without seeing him. At exactly what point does the fact that youre doing the same thing stop counting because of the difference in the comparison? Hard thing to decide.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:59 PM   #29
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by picc84

Its like a 14 year old ranking Larry Bird when all he's seen play in his lifetime has been players from the latest era. Its going by reputation and common opinion instead of making an informed decision.
so fkn true. lebron still isnt even on that fkn list and hes surpassed alot of those players.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: How can you rank players when you've never seen them play?

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Originally Posted by jo3y91
so fkn true. lebron still isnt even on that fkn list and hes surpassed alot of those players.
You need at least 5 years experience to be on that list, I told you before.
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