Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2007, 02:05 PM   #16
Y2Gezee
Troll spotting pro
 
Y2Gezee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In hell when Im on ISH
Posts: 4,613
Y2Gezee is a pretty well-respected posterY2Gezee is a pretty well-respected posterY2Gezee is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

If we're talking about pure passing talent, not pg talent or just assist numbers, then this list sucks. Davis should be ATLEAST 3rd. And Ford should be higher up. Iverson is sooooo better than Wade or maybe even Deron as far as the flashy pass. And Kidd is the best
Y2Gezee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:06 PM   #17
Cannonball
Lets GO PENS!
 
Cannonball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: pa...
Posts: 8,886
Cannonball has a near all-star reputation hereCannonball has a near all-star reputation hereCannonball has a near all-star reputation hereCannonball has a near all-star reputation hereCannonball has a near all-star reputation hereCannonball has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

It is not just the higher apg that puts LeBron above Tmac. LeBron has ungodly court vision. I've seen him make a behind the back no look pass to hughes seting him up for the wide open dunk from nearly half court!

Tmac gets assists by giving it to Yao, LeBron doesn't have a guy you can give it to down low for the real easy score. Varejo and Gooden will finish if it's an open dunk/layup but you can't lob it down there and expect them to post up, like Yao.

You give LeBron another Allstar, let alone a top 3 center in the league and he'll give you 8-9apg.
Cannonball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:07 PM   #18
boozehound
An uglier Lamar Doom
 
boozehound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24,199
boozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Yes, but he has no other playmaker on his team. he's improved his passing to become the head playmaker, but a big part of why his assists are so high is because he's the only playmaker. McGrady has Rafer Alston averaging 5 assists with him, yet he still manages to average around 6 to be right behind Lebron. If you average almost as many assists as somebody when you have another playmaker on your team while the other player doesn't, that's saying something.

McGrady's career APG is low at 4.6 because 1. He started off his career slowly and 2. He's only been a playmaker since he came to Houston. On Toronto he was a rebounding scorer and on Orlando he was a scoring machine. Same with Iverson, his career APG is lower than it could be because he hasn't been a primary playmaker for his entire career.
hamilton had close to 4 last year (not too far off fram rafer's 5) and another 8 or so from the frontcourt. I agree that its clearly not the same sit as meMac, but the pistons tend to have fairly high assist #s night in night out (when they are winning ). Its not like webber and prince are blackhole chuckers (tione, im looking in your direction) and neither is wallace really.
boozehound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:12 PM   #19
Richie2k6
Smooth Like Butter
 
Richie2k6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Terrordome Team: Nuggets
Posts: 9,908
Richie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Quote:
It is not just the higher apg that puts LeBron above Tmac. LeBron has ungodly court vision. I've seen him make a behind the back no look pass to hughes seting him up for the wide open dunk from nearly half court!
And that makes his court vision better than McGrady's how? I really can't think of anything Lebron can do passing-wise that McGrady can't.
Quote:
Tmac gets assists by giving it to Yao, LeBron doesn't have a guy you can give it to down low for the real easy score. Varejo and Gooden will finish if it's an open dunk/layup but you can't lob it down there and expect them to post up, like Yao.
People overrate the amount of times McGrady creates for Yao. It happens less than people think. Yao is the kind ofguy you dump it down to and let him work, not dish it off to for an assist. Derek Fisher didn't give dimes to Shaq often, he created for himself. Parker doesn't give dimes to Duncan often, he creates for himself. And Lebron does have people to pass to. Gooden can score if set up properly, so can Big Z, Pavlovic can knock down some jumpers, so can Gibson. Varejao doesn't get plays ran for him in the first place so he's just out of the question; a pure hustle player.
Quote:
You give LeBron another Allstar, let alone a top 3 center in the league and he'll give you 8-9apg.
That's a funny statement. I've heard that before. Somebody said "Give Lebron a good sidekick and he'll easily average 10 assists". It's not that simple. You really expect Lebron to put up 30/6/9? Come on now. Half the reason he averages 6 assists is because he has no other playmaker on his team. He has to create for others. Put him next to a real point guard and do you think he'll be averaging 7 assists? Of course not, more like 4 or 5. You don't just throw an all-star next to another all-star and expect the good passing one's assist numbers to go up, it's not that simple.
Richie2k6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:16 PM   #20
Rockets(T-mac)
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Rockets(T-mac)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,271
Rockets(T-mac) has a terrific reputationRockets(T-mac) has a terrific reputationRockets(T-mac) has a terrific reputationRockets(T-mac) has a terrific reputationRockets(T-mac) has a terrific reputation
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
It is not just the higher apg that puts LeBron above Tmac. LeBron has ungodly court vision. I've seen him make a behind the back no look pass to hughes seting him up for the wide open dunk from nearly half court!

Tmac gets assists by giving it to Yao, LeBron doesn't have a guy you can give it to down low for the real easy score. Varejo and Gooden will finish if it's an open dunk/layup but you can't lob it down there and expect them to post up, like Yao.

You give LeBron another Allstar, let alone a top 3 center in the league and he'll give you 8-9apg.
Take away Alston and T-mac would probably average around 8 assists. Have you seen T-mac's court vision? He would find Chuck Hayes and Juwan Howard for wide open layups all the time and you don't even expect it. He will jump in the air for a jumper and turn it into a quick pass to Hayes for an easy layup.. When T-mac dumps it into Yao he usually runs to the other side of the court to give Yao room to operate so it usually doesn't result in an assist. T-mac is also great at find open perimater players too.

In 2007 T-mac averaged 6.5 assists and Lebron averaged 6 assists. T-mac did this while playing with Alston who averaged 5.4 assists. Lebron averaged less with no other decent playmaker. Also Houston ran a slower offense last then the Cavs. So it was even harder for T-mac to get the assists.

Last edited by Rockets(T-mac) : 09-03-2007 at 02:19 PM.
Rockets(T-mac) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:33 PM   #21
RecSpecs110
Prokhorov = Badass
 
RecSpecs110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 3,020
RecSpecs110 is considered somewhat coolRecSpecs110 is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

In terms of passing, Kidd = Nash IMO. Nash has Amare, Marion, Bell, Barbosa, and even Diaw, who are far superior in making shots than the combo of VC, RJ, and Boki. And Vince is better off creating his own shot.
RecSpecs110 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:35 PM   #22
Richie2k6
Smooth Like Butter
 
Richie2k6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Terrordome Team: Nuggets
Posts: 9,908
Richie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecSpecs110
In terms of passing, Kidd = Nash IMO. Nash has Amare, Marion, Bell, Barbosa, and even Diaw, who are far superior in making shots than the combo of VC, RJ, and Boki. And Vince is better off creating his own shot.
Yeah, it's pretty much give or take with Kidd and Nash.
Richie2k6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:43 PM   #23
geeWiz15
Quality Posts™
 
geeWiz15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: limbo
Posts: 5,765
geeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

I think Bron deserves to be there over Billups. Billups is the definition of solid but he does not have an ounce of creativity in him- he just makes the right play and doesn't make mistakes. I've seen Bron throw some passes that you just don't see people try- and complete them.

I think Tmac should be ahead of AI, Wade and TJ Ford and Lebron should be right below Tmac.

Otherwise your list is right as far as I'm concerned.
geeWiz15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:50 PM   #24
D-Fence
Great young streetballer
 
D-Fence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 503
D-Fence has decent reputation
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Good list, Richie; I enjoyed reading it.

I have a couple of suggestions, though. I think Chauncey Billups is a better passer than Allen Iverson, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and maybe a couple other players above him on this list. Billups' assists per 100 possessions, for example, are considerably superior to those three. The last two seasons, Billups has averaged 33.1 and 30.4 assists per 100 possessions. Iverson has averaged 21.1 and 20.2; James has averaged 17.6 and 17.7; and Wade has averaged 19.8 and 21.4. Moreover, I consider Iverson, James and Wade to be better at passing for the assist than in setting up plays in general that may not lead to an assist, so I consider Billups a superior passer all-around to these three. He also averages significantly fewer turnovers. Maybe he's just underrated because he plays for the Pistons, and, generally, isn't as flashy of a player.

Andre Miller should probably be on this list. He's also a better passer than Iverson, James and Wade. The assist numbers back this up, too. Moreover, he's a great lob passer. I doubt anyone was better at making the alley-oop pass while Miller was in Denver.

Boris Diaw and Luke Walton are just as good, if not better, at passing as more acclaimed players like James and Tracy McGrady. It's just that they control the ball less often, and they're not significant scoring threats.

Anyhow, again, good list.
D-Fence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:54 PM   #25
Kobe Bean Bryant
I airball my layups
 
Kobe Bean Bryant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 68
Kobe Bean Bryant has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Chris Paul > Deron in terms of passing.
Kobe Bean Bryant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 03:06 PM   #26
Darkess
High School Varsity 12th Man
 
Darkess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 744
Darkess has not been impressing people
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe Bean Bryant
Chris Paul > Deron in terms of passing.

Explain.
Darkess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 03:09 PM   #27
Richie2k6
Smooth Like Butter
 
Richie2k6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Terrordome Team: Nuggets
Posts: 9,908
Richie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterRichie2k6 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Quote:
I think Bron deserves to be there over Billups. Billups is the definition of solid but he does not have an ounce of creativity in him- he just makes the right play and doesn't make mistakes. I've seen Bron throw some passes that you just don't see people try- and complete them.
Fair enough, though I'd personally rather have a point guard that gets the job done and smart, I.E. Billups. Flashiness doesn't really matter to me, in terms of determining how good of a passer they are.
Quote:
I have a couple of suggestions, though. I think Chauncey Billups is a better passer than Allen Iverson, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and maybe a couple other players above him on this list. Billups' assists per 100 possessions, for example, are considerably superior to those three. The last two seasons, Billups has averaged 33.1 and 30.4 assists per 100 possessions. Iverson has averaged 21.1 and 20.2; James has averaged 17.6 and 17.7; and Wade has averaged 19.8 and 21.4. Moreover, I consider Iverson, James and Wade to be better at passing for the assist than in setting up plays in general that may not lead to an assist, so I consider Billups a superior passer all-around to these three. He also averages significantly fewer turnovers. Maybe he's just underrated because he plays for the Pistons, and, generally, isn't as flashy of a player.
1 and 2 were dead set, 3 and 4 were dead set. 5-10 was the difficult thing to organize. I was thinking of putting Billups up at around 7 or so, but then I had to keep in mind a few things for Iverson:

- Iverson has averaged 7+ assists consistently for the past 3 years, and 6.8 before that. Plus he averaged 7.5 in his rookie year. Whereas Billup's assist numbers have gone up and down: 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 3, 5, 5, 8, 7.
- Iverson scores much more than Billups, while still being next to or above him in certain assist categories. Being able to score like he does and get assists is another thing that makes him more amazing.
- Billups has been top 10 in assists per game and total assists average twice. Iverson has been top 10 twice for total assists and 3 times in assists per game.

Iverson, Billups, Wade, Lebron and McGrady, for all of them, it's mostly opinional for who people think is the better passer.
Quote:
Andre Miller should probably be on this list. He's also a better passer than Iverson, James and Wade. The assist numbers back this up, too. Moreover, he's a great lob passer. I doubt anyone was better at making the alley-oop pass while Miller was in Denver.
Definitely a worthy argument to be on the list as well.
Richie2k6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 03:12 PM   #28
boozehound
An uglier Lamar Doom
 
boozehound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24,199
boozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableboozehound is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Fence
Good list, Richie; I enjoyed reading it.

I have a couple of suggestions, though. I think Chauncey Billups is a better passer than Allen Iverson, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and maybe a couple other players above him on this list. Billups' assists per 100 possessions, for example, are considerably superior to those three. The last two seasons, Billups has averaged 33.1 and 30.4 assists per 100 possessions. Iverson has averaged 21.1 and 20.2; James has averaged 17.6 and 17.7; and Wade has averaged 19.8 and 21.4. Moreover, I consider Iverson, James and Wade to be better at passing for the assist than in setting up plays in general that may not lead to an assist, so I consider Billups a superior passer all-around to these three. He also averages significantly fewer turnovers. Maybe he's just underrated because he plays for the Pistons, and, generally, isn't as flashy of a player.

Andre Miller should probably be on this list. He's also a better passer than Iverson, James and Wade. The assist numbers back this up, too. Moreover, he's a great lob passer. I doubt anyone was better at making the alley-oop pass while Miller was in Denver.

Boris Diaw and Luke Walton are just as good, if not better, at passing as more acclaimed players like James and Tracy McGrady. It's just that they control the ball less often, and they're not significant scoring threats.
Anyhow, again, good list.
good well reasoned post.
boozehound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 03:19 PM   #29
bomber
Good college starter
 
bomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,650
bomber has decent reputationbomber has decent reputation
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Bump MAC to 10 and get lebron on there somewhere.
bomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 03:23 PM   #30
Glove_20
The Expert
 
Glove_20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,200
Glove_20 is considered somewhat coolGlove_20 is considered somewhat coolGlove_20 is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Top 10 Passers

Nice list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
- Iverson scores much more than Billups, while still being next to or above him in certain assist categories. Being able to score like he does and get assists is another thing that makes him more amazing.


At the same time, if you're a score 1st PG, teams are going to stop you from scoring and pressure you. That's what happens to Iverson. So as team's try to stop you from scoring and close up on you, you're going to get wide open teammates and it will be easier to set up teammates when teams are more focused on stopping you. Versus, when other teams aren't worried about you scoring, and you're a pass 1st PG, in that aspect, it might be easier to score, but you're not going to get wide open teammates every where...
Glove_20 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:47 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy