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Old 08-17-2007, 06:21 PM   #16
Carbine
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

I don't believe it was a push-off in the sence that without the push, he wouldn't have gotten enough space to shoot the exact same jumper.

I think he used Russell' thigh/leg as more of a ballace assist. It's arguable, of course, but to me that wasn't a push-off that warrented an offensive foul in that situation.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

That's not a foul you guys are just too used to today's p*ssy-fied NBA where every damn little thing is a foul and every 2-guard relies on the refs to bail them out.

Look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNnLXBnMfM

Reggie Miller *clearly* pushes off Jordan there, it's a small little push, but a full on, both forearms shove into the chest that sends Jordan flying back ... no foul call.

You don't call touch falls in clutch situations, the players should decide the game.

Last edited by Soundwave : 08-17-2007 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

Yeah I don't like this whole All Star calls stuff it's BS. Call the game the way it is. If you are a great player than it wouldn't matter.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

Is this a foul?
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:35 PM   #20
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Default bryon russell's account

regarding the play, bryon russell said:

"I've had referees come up to me and say they would have made the call , but who was going to call a push-off at that time on the greatest player to ever play the game? That night, it just felt like they werent going to let us win"


he was asserting that sentimentality played a role in that the refs intuitively knew the world wanted a hollywood ending (from araton)

Crashing the Borders by Harvey Araton
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: bryon russell's account

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
regarding the play, bryon russell said:

"I've had referees come up to me and say they would have made the call , but who was going to call a push-off at that time on the greatest player to ever play the game? That night, it just felt like they werent going to let us win"


he was asserting that sentimentality played a role in that the refs intuitively knew the world wanted a hollywood ending (from araton)

Crashing the Borders by Harvey Araton

While that is his opinion, you never want players to feel that way.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

Russell is full of crap ... he's 6'7 200-pound man and goes flying like a rag doll from a little contact? He slipped himself on the floor to boot.

The Jazz lost because they didn't deserve to win. Karl Malone chokes *again* in the clutch by just dangling the ball out there for anyone to steal it.

They had Pippen hobbling around like an arthritic old man and no other Bulls but Jordan really playing well in '98 and still could not get the job done.

On top of the fact IMO it's pretty obvious some over zealous Jazz fans/Utah citizens gave Jordan food poisoning in 1997. He shows up to Utah for a pivotal game and "mysteriously" gets an extremely violent case of food poisoning after eating some hotel food .... yeah ... that's not suspicious at all.

I have zero symphathy for the Jazz. They had ample oppurtunities/lucky breaks in 97 and 98 to win and still blew it.

In the clutch you do not call every little damn touch foul, there is some contact allowed (on both ends). Look at Reggie Miller shoving Jordan very clearly in the same 1998 playoffs .... no foul on Reggie. THAT is a push off ... that was far more direct contact than Jordan/Russell.

Last edited by Soundwave : 08-17-2007 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe24
No not really. Roy embellished a bit.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by StroShow4
a push off foul isnt gonna get called in that situation, period.. they are going to let the players play because there would be alot bigger issue if they had called it.. everyone would be complaining about how the refs decided the game and not the players.


then why was Dirk called for blocking when Wade stiff armed him in the last minute of Game 6?

The refs are simply too inconsistent to defend them. You can't say a foul is not a foul b/c its late in the game and to let the players play and you can't call one thing on one side and then ignore the exact same crap on the other end. Thats what NBA refs do and thats why everyone says they suck ass. Stern needs to get his head out of his ass and fix this. But he wont. He is too prideful to admit Cuban has been right all along that the refs are bad.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: bryon russell's account

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
regarding the play, bryon russell said:

"I've had referees come up to me and say they would have made the call , but who was going to call a push-off at that time on the greatest player to ever play the game? That night, it just felt like they werent going to let us win"


he was asserting that sentimentality played a role in that the refs intuitively knew the world wanted a hollywood ending (from araton)

Crashing the Borders by Harvey Araton

Anyone other than me also remember Howard Eisley's three-pointer at the end of the first half which was waved off, but which should've counted earlier that very same game?
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: bryon russell's account

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
Anyone other than me also remember Howard Eisley's three-pointer at the end of the first half which was waved off, but which should've counted earlier that very same game?

This type of stuff happens in every ... single ... basketball game though. It happens in baseball, it happens in hockey, it happens in football, etc. etc. if you sit back afterwards and review every single play in slo-motion after the fact, sure you can probably find plays in every game that have missed calls. Odds are there were calls that went against the Bulls also.

For the Jazz to cry conspiracy is laughable. They had many lucky breaks and bounces in both the 1997 and 1998 Finals and could not seal the deal.

The Jordan push was incidental contact at best, even in a regular season game in the 1st quarter there's a pretty fair chance that would not have been called. Looking at the play, Russell was already off-balance and scrambling.

If you want to a clear, unmistakable push off look at Reggie Miller vs. Jordan in the 1998 ECF just a few weeks prior.

Last edited by Soundwave : 08-17-2007 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

it was on offensive foul but MJ owns the NBA during that time so who would complain, anybody who thinks its not knows nothing about hoops.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

Officiating of NBA games has to have an overhaul after the Donaghy scandal. For there to be consistency, it would be preferable if NBA refs didn't swallow their whistles in the closing minutes or a game. A ref will have to draw the line at some point anyhow. Bruce Bowen's foul on LeBron James' 3 point attempt in the Finals is a good example. That was clearly a foul at any other point in the game. But if refs aren't calling these touch fouls, why are they calling others at the end of close games in the playoffs.

Another play involving Bruce Bowen comes to my mind. When he was called for a foul while guarding Dirk Nowitzki during the 2006 playoffs. The one where Bowen yelled at David Stern "This is terrible!" That's a touchy foul to call at the end of a close playoff game. And there have been numerous others.

Anyhow, there's a lot of inconistency. There always will be some because it is a difficult job. But they can definitely improve things.

There probably is some star treatment, too. Allen Iverson palming the ball during his crossover is a good example. It's not a conspiracy, though. Great players get this sort of subconscious treatment on things they do well. But refs need to try to counteract this natural tendecy.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:45 PM   #29
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

LOL, looking at it again, there isn't even a pushing motion on Jordan's part. It was some contact with Jordan stopping on Russell's butt (lol), but Russell slipped on his own. Russell was already beat on the play, the moment you turn your body like that, you have to stop to face up again.

The Jazz were stupid for not double teaming in that situation anyway, 1-on-1, did they seriously think Russell was going to be able to stop Jordan from getting a shot off? In a 1-on-1 situation, lets face it, Jordan is able to get his shot off just about against anyone, and doubly stupid to the Jazz for basically giving Jordan the entire middle of the floor to work with.

That's not a foul, if you're going to call that, you have to call basically any type of physical contact, which is ridiculous.

Last edited by Soundwave : 08-17-2007 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:10 PM   #30
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Default Re: Former NBA Ref says "Jordan's push off was an offensive foul..."

I'll just repost several posts on this that I made on another board a couple of weeks ago since I don't feel like wasting more time. Hopefully people can grasp the context of the remarks I was replying to without seeing them:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki

Watch the play from the normal game angle at normal speed and anyone with an intuitive understanding of physics and momentum can see that whatever Jordan did was most certainly not responsible for Russell's reaction. Jordan had his inner wrist on Russell's lower butt for a whole 1 second -- he had neither the angle (of pressure applied) nor the time necessary to generate the force it would take to send a 220 pound man flying, unless Jordan is the world's strongest man. Add to that the fact that after Jordan removed his hand Russell still took another step and then fell, and it doesn't add up.


Honestly, I defy anyone who has played ball at a high level (most of whom have an intuitive sense of momentum/natural physics) to watch that play from the normal game angle at normal speed and tell me that Jordan's placing his hand on Russell was responsible for the fall. Go ahead and tell me.


It's bogus. Yeah, when you watch the super slow-mo replay, where it looks like Jordan's hand is on Russell's behind for a good 10 seconds (which would be necessary to generate the force needed to push a man of Russell's size from that angle), it may seem that way, but no. Just no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
The reason your fraction-of-a-second punch "works" (i.e., can move a large mass) and Jordan's inner wrist touch doesn't is because you are generating a far greater impulse. Impulse, the integral of a force with respect to time, can be increased by increasing the duration of applied force or increasing the force (measured in Newtons) itself. When you punch someone, you're doing the latter -- increasing the force applied.

You're imparting a far greater force and therefore generating a far greater impulse despite a lesser duration of contact. That's why you can move someone in a small amount of time and Jordan couldn't have.


Maybe if Jordan wound up and swung and followed through, yeah, but that's not what he did. In fact, Jordan's hand never even came more than halfway across his own body, which is a further indictment of the "push-off" theory. I'll let you try to figure out why -- I'm not here to teach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Again, I'd venture to guess that anyone who has played ball at a high level would be able to tell that there's no way Jordan generated the force necessary to cause that reaction in the manner it occurred. I say this because high-level ball players have an intuitive understanding of natural physics and momentum gained from years of observing and interacting with other moving bodies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Also, with respect to the final point, note that Russell still took another step after Jordan removed his hand and only then lost his balance. Russell's center of mass was still directly above his legs (not out in front of him, which is what caused him to fall) when Jordan removed his hand. So unless Jordan can not only generate tremendous force with his inner wrist in one second's time, but also then get all Jedi and continue imparting that force after he's removed his hand, then his "push" wasn't responsible for Russell's reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
When did I ever say that? Jordan and many players give the pat on the butt to make sure that they've cleared the offensive player on a change of direction move. His hand was obviously there -- how could one deny that? What I deny is that he could have posibly imparted enough force to cause the reaction we witnessed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Yet the upper half of his hand isn't cupped inward as one would expect if one were trying to exert maximum force. His fingers are loose and pointed outward. If you're pushing something with the face of your hand, don't you try to place your hand flush on the surface and then push with every part of your hand rather than trying to push with only the bottom half of your hand and inner wrist?


So Jordan not only exerted a huge force on Russell in one second or less, he did so without his arm/hand crossing more than a third of the way across his own body (as would be necessary to generate the requisite force), and did it with only 40-60% of his hand exerting said force. He also was able to do this despite his hand being below Russell's center of mass. Michael Jordan: World's Strongest Man.

Last edited by Loki : 08-17-2007 at 09:13 PM.
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