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Old 08-17-2007, 04:46 PM   #16
Attila
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 08-17-2007, 04:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

My vote goes to Jerry Lucas. Named to the NBA's 50 greatest players list in 1996, he is generally considered to be one of the greatest bigs of all time. Able to dominate two positions, power forward and center, he was extremely versatile, constantly displaying the ability to shoot outside or drive past other big men while still retaining the ability to score in the post.

He is widely considered to be one of the greatest rebounders of all time, once grabbing 40 in a single game(only three other players have gotten more). His 15.6 rebounds per game average is surpassed only by Chamberlain, Russell, and Pettit. He could also score to go along with his rebounding prowess. In fact, twice he averaged over 20 points and 20 rebounds in the same season. Wilt is the only other player to have accomplished this enormous feat more than once.

Despite not being able to win a title teamed alongside Oscar Robertson, he eventually won one as a integral part of the Knicks 1972 team. Also interesting to note is that New York reached the finals in 1971, which they lost, but Lucas outscored superstar center Wilt Chamberlain, a man famous for scoring points in abundance.

Few players have had the statistical dominance and impact on the game as Jerry Lucas. He dominated at every level, winning three Big Ten MVP awards and 76 consecutive high school games, to go along with his tremendous NBA success. He deserves this spot.
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Old 08-17-2007, 04:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Robert Parish, again.
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Old 08-17-2007, 05:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 08-17-2007, 05:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Can somebody tell me why Artis Gilmore is being forgotten severely here? I've been voting for him since about #48 or so, and the most votes he's gotten was like 3 or something. Anybody want to explain what's keeping him out, or what makes McGrady/Maravich better than him?
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Old 08-17-2007, 05:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Can somebody tell me why Artis Gilmore is being forgotten severely here? I've been voting for him since about #48 or so, and the most votes he's gotten was like 3 or something. Anybody want to explain what's keeping him out, or what makes McGrady/Maravich better than him?
For me Gilmore is next i line after Bernard King (my current vote).


I don't know why more folks ain't voting for A-Train. I'd take him slighty before Pistol and with McGrady it's a toss up. People's are looking at his ABA career, (which he dominated) and his NBA career (which he didn't dominate).

While he didn't dominate in the NBA, he was still a 6 time All-Star and took his team to multiple Conference Finals appearances. He was a good but not great scorer, a great defender and rebounder and has the best field goal % in league history.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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If we're ranking these players on talent/skill, then Artis would be a lot higher. However, like many big men during his time period, his prime only lasted 8 years, 6 of which were spent in the ABA. I actually tried to rally a few votes for Artis in the 30's, but was shot down as this poll is based purely on player's NBA careers.

During his NBA career, Artis came in and impressed players and fans alike with his freakish athleticism. He was well over 7 feet tall, could jump like Spud Webb, had the strength of Shaq, and was as mobile as a center could get. He dominated on both ends with his athleticism. However, he did not possess remarkable skills/coordination, and his lack of those became more evident as he aged, and lost some of his athleticism.

He still did put up great numbers in the NBA though. 17/10/2 along with a career PER of 20, and a career fg% of 60% were quite remarkable numbers for someone who was past his prime. He also received NBA MVP votes in 4 seasons. However, he lacked much team success in the NBA, as teams he played on only had 4 seasons with an above-.500 winning %.

I'd probably vote for Artis if I wasn't so intent on getting Moncrief into the top 60/65 players. If he receives a lot of votes, I may change my vote to him though.

Reasons people are not voting for Artis include...
-People think of him as a dominant ABA player, but just an average all-star NBA player.
-Losing NBA record
-Most think of his as not a very skilled player/overrated on defense.
-6 of his 8 "prime" seasons were spent in the ABA.

I'll support Artis once he starts getting some votes/has a chance of getting in, or when Moncrief gets in.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Can somebody tell me why Artis Gilmore is being forgotten severely here? I've been voting for him since about #48 or so, and the most votes he's gotten was like 3 or something. Anybody want to explain what's keeping him out, or what makes McGrady/Maravich better than him?

I wrote a couple posts on Gilmore and why I think it's a bit early for him. Gilmore hasn't placed very well in these kind of lists before. You have an argument for Gilmore being over Maravich and maybe McGrady, but, in my opinion, there are a few players unselected who still go over Gilmore or could go over Gilmore.

These players dominated their era just as much, if not more: Paul Arizin, Neil Johnston, Bill Sharman, Joe Fulks, Jim Pollard, Vern Mikkelson, Bob Davies.

These players played in more competitive eras: Jerry Lucas, Dave DeBusschere, Earl Monroe, Dave Bing, Robert Parish, James Worthy, Alex English, Sidney Moncrief.

Even though Gilmore dominated the ABA, I'm not sure he was greater than Mel Daniels, who won 3 championships in the ABA and was also an MVP and multiple rebounding champ. And, in the NBA, he didn't distinguish himself much from Bob Lanier, Robert Parish and Jack Sikma.

Anyhow, I could see putting Gilmore over some of these players, but not all of them.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Fence
I wrote a couple posts on Gilmore and why I think it's a bit early for him. Gilmore hasn't placed very well in these kind of lists before. You have an argument for Gilmore being over Maravich and maybe McGrady, but, in my opinion, there are a few players unselected who still go over Gilmore or could go over Gilmore.

These players dominated their era just as much, if not more: Paul Arizin, Neil Johnston, Bill Sharman, Joe Fulks, Jim Pollard, Vern Mikkelson, Bob Davies.

These players played in more competitive eras: Jerry Lucas, Dave DeBusschere, Earl Monroe, Dave Bing, Robert Parish, James Worthy, Alex English, Sidney Moncrief.

Even though Gilmore dominated the ABA, I'm not sure he was greater than Mel Daniels, who won 3 championships in the ABA and was also an MVP and multiple rebounding champ. And, in the NBA, he didn't distinguish himself much from Bob Lanier, Robert Parish and Jack Sikma.

Anyhow, I could see putting Gilmore over some of these players, but not all of them.


Keep in mind Gilmore was still a 6x All-Star in the NBA, competing with the likes of Abdul Jabbar and Moses Malone, just to name a few. His FG%'s were always there, and that's always a huge plus, when your big man is extremely efficient. He was top 10 in RPG in the NBA for all his years in the NBA, which proves he could rebound with the NBA competition. Top 8 in defensive total rebounds in almost all of his NBA years as well; top 10 in blocks and total blocks, too. That shows he could handle the NBA competition.

He was the leading scorer in just about all of his years on the Bulls, too. The only thing he wasn't great at in the NBA was winning. But his supporting cast was nothing spectacular either, for the most part. This is a man who put up almost 2000/1500 in his rookie year, while going 68-16, +24 wins the year he got drafted. His impact on the court was massive, literally.

He was a very skilled big man as well, who fused finesse and power. He never had a losing record in the ABA and won a championship once, after getting to the Finals 2 times before.

He still managed to make the playoffs twice in his run on the Bulls, being second in their division both times. As for all the players you listed, it'd put Gilmore right in the same league as all of them. Gilmore wasn't easily better than any of them, and vice versa for any of them as well. It's close for just about all the players you mentioned, at least the ones I know about.

As for Mel Daniels, his career was unbelievably short, but he won 3 rings, 2 MVPs and 3 rebounding titles in the ABA. Gilmore won one ring, but came close to winning 3, one MVP and one Playoffs MVP, and had 4 rebounding titles in the NBA, plus more All-NBA and All-Defensive teams than Daniels.

In short, it's legitimate to believe some of the players you mentioned can be ranked above Gilmore, because for the most part, it's opinion, and since all of the players you listed are in Gilmore's league, it can be very close to decide. I just think Gilmore should get a spot around now.
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Old 08-17-2007, 08:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

The Pearl.
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Old 08-17-2007, 08:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Keep in mind Gilmore was still a 6x All-Star in the NBA, competing with the likes of Abdul Jabbar and Moses Malone, just to name a few.
Robert Parish made 9 All-Star games and an All-NBA 2nd Team over Gilmore. He also has a clear advantage over Gilmore as to winning. Gilmore doesn't have the longevity argument here, either. I'd put Parish ahead of Gilmore.

Bob Lanier made 8 All-Star games. His teams struggled a bit more, though, and when adding the ABA, Gilmore goes ahead of him.

Jack Sikma made 7 All-Star games and, like Gilmore, 1 All-Defensive 2nd Team in the NBA. Sikma also is an NBA champion, which counts a bit more than being an ABA champion. I think this one's actually pretty close. Gilmore was a better and more efficient scorer, but Sikma was a superior passer and ballhandler and could help out the offense in other ways. Gilmore has a bit of a rebounding edge. I'd have to think more on this one--could give it to Gilmore, though.

Mel Daniels had a better ABA career than Gilmore, but when you take into account longevity and that Gilmore had a good NBA career, yeah, you'd probably have to take Gilmore.

So, for just the centers from around Gilmore's own time, I'm pretty sure I'd take one (Parish) over him. Comparing him to centers from other eras, like Neil Johnston, Walt Bellamy and Alonzo Mourning, is more difficult, plus there's all the players at other positions that I mentioned.

Quote:
In short, it's legitimate to believe some of the players you mentioned can be ranked above Gilmore, because for the most part, it's opinion, and since all of the players you listed are in Gilmore's league, it can be very close to decide. I just think Gilmore should get a spot around now.
I agree. I'd probably put him the 60s. I'll vote for players who had more success in the more competitive NBA before him, like Jerry Lucas and Dave DeBusschere. His ABA accomplishments probably count as much if not more than some of the earlier players I mentioned, though, so that'll be difficult for me. Plus, I like to think that innovation counts for something.

Quote:
His FG%'s were always there, and that's always a huge plus, when your big man is extremely efficient. He was top 10 in RPG in the NBA for all his years in the NBA, which proves he could rebound with the NBA competition. Top 8 in defensive total rebounds in almost all of his NBA years as well; top 10 in blocks and total blocks, too. That shows he could handle the NBA competition.
His FG% certainly stands out. His rebounding and defense are good--even though he played for an awful defensive team in the Spurs later on. One thing that probably prevented him from being an elite center, however, was that he didn't have the hands for passing and catching difficult passes. He had quite a few turnovers and led the NBA in the category once. He made up in his own scoring by being a very efficient scorer, but he couldn't make up for the rest.

Quote:
He was a very skilled big man as well, who fused finesse and power.

Another thing that I kind of hold against Gilmore as that he receieved a good share of criticism for being "soft." In an earlier post, I quoted a coach who said how the 38-year old Gus Johnson pushed Gilmore out of his comfort zone during the ABA Finals that they lost.

Anyhow, Gilmore isn't an unreasonable pick here. He was at least a better team player than Pete Maravich.
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Thought I voted in the last round. Oh well.

Jerry Lucas, again.

Last edited by Selenium : 08-18-2007 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:47 AM   #28
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

LeBron James? or is it too early in his career?
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Old 08-18-2007, 11:33 AM   #29
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Default Re: Official #55 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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LeBron James? or is it too early in his career?
If you think after 4 seasons of play LeBron James is the 55th Greatest players of all-time, then ...
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