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Old 08-16-2007, 11:25 AM   #16
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

it looks to me like George gets screened by his own man (Fox?) on that Stackhouse dunk.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:30 AM   #17
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
I was sort of going to respond this myself.

This call was made by Phil Jackson. He made a call, unconventional as it might have been, and it worked out. That means he made the right call, because Phil Jackson doesn't have to prove if he is really a great coach or just some lucky punk.

Remember PJ didn't just know these players from boxscores. He worked with these players every day.
Sorry but there comes a point you have to look past the result and realize that the play was just stupid.

Sure the shot went in. Bulls wins.

However, it was still a play that called for a rookie who is struggling to create his own points to shoot a turnaround fade-away from deep. That's poor play design and a ball call on Coach Jackson's part.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:35 AM   #18
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

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Originally Posted by IllegalD


Here's the SOBER version of the play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-LmnVEXX24

to alcohol the cause of and solution to all of the life's problems.

well at least when king watches this, he'll see mj actually being a decoy. as in not involved but occupying the best defender on the other team.

and for the record - my memory made it much more exciting. thanks for the link.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Its always a tough call with the "last shot" because on the one hand you want you r best player making the play on the other hand, you never want ot do what the defense knows you are going to do.

Examples:

Heat v. Knicks - one of those years. Elimination game. Heat nead a last shot and have a lot of time, ball goes to Hardway and then through a very well executed play, ball winds up in Weatherspoon's hands and he misses the shot. Now good coaching - got an open shot, near the basket; Bad coaching - that's Hardway's shot first, then Mourning's shot.

Cavs v. Pistons - Game 5. Leb going crazy. The entire Pistons team is defending him. Brown keeps calling his number, the shots keep going in. Each shot is worse than the one before it, but they keep going in. Good coahicng - get the ball to your best player for him to make the play and you win; Bad coaching - setting up gad-awful shots and really just praying

Knicks v. Bulls - Game 6. Pippen was the best player on that team, but there was only 1.8 seconds left. Not enough time for Pip to break the D down and get to thebasket. Needed a quick jumper. Good coaching - got makeable shot, near-ish to the baket; Bad coaching - that's Pippen's shot.

What's a coach to do??
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Sorry, can't view YouTube while. At work. Until I get home to check this you're wrong. Mike just made a good pass.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:39 AM   #21
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
Sorry but there comes a point you have to look past the result and realize that the play was just stupid.

Sure the shot went in. Bulls wins.

However, it was still a play that called for a rookie who is struggling to create his own points to shoot a turnaround fade-away from deep. That's poor play design and a ball call on Coach Jackson's part.

you cant say that because you dont know all the information and variables Phil had to work with...Like what he thought of Pip in the clutch vs. Toni...what he saw the defense doing towards the end of the game etc...
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
Sorry, can't view YouTube while. At work. Until I get home to check this you're wrong. Mike just made a good pass.
no i was super wrong. like not even close wrong. like if i hadn't got the stackhouse part right i would have been so far off that nobody would have known what the hell i was talking about.

mike doesn't even make the pass or touch the ball on the play. he stands between the opposite elbow and the opposite block with kobe guarding him while the play happens on the strong side in a quick give and go between russell and stack.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:41 AM   #23
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
i can't speak for other bulls fans, but i was immediately reminded of how scottie didn't want the pressure early in his career. i thought it was a bizarre 180 degree spin for him, and i was really out of character in general for him since he's such a team guy. it bothered me at first, but he was one of my faves since he first entered the league, so i got over it quick. wouldn't have been held against him as much if toni had missed that shot either.


and yet this is the same pippen who was on the court during his Blazers went through one of the biggest meltdowns in sports history in the 4th quarter of game 7... and all Pippen did in the 4th quarter was:

Attempt one three pointer.

Some leadership.

Phil Jackson made the right choice letting Kukoc take the shot. Pippen is a KG, natural born second banana.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:43 AM   #24
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
you cant say that because you dont know all the information and variables Phil had to work with...Like what he thought of Pip in the clutch vs. Toni...what he saw the defense doing towards the end of the game etc...
At this point I'm not even talking about Pip versus Toni. I'm talking the play itself.

Go back and look at the play design. Phil Jackson called a play that the primary option was a turn-around Three-ball with his team down one.

Regardless of the ball falling through the net that's just bad play-calling/play-designing.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:45 AM   #25
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
and yet this is the same pippen who was on the court during his Blazers went through one of the biggest meltdowns in sports history in the 4th quarter of game 7... and all Pippen did in the 4th quarter was:

Attempt one three pointer.

Some leadership.

Phil Jackson made the right choice letting Kukoc take the shot. Pippen is a KG, natural born second banana.
true. he didn't take the head of the offense leadership role in houston that they really wanted either. barkley wound up leading that team in intensity and production in the playoffs. that's why i felt like it was out of character for him to even want that last shot so badly. not that he's not good enough for it or didn't deserve it or anything. just that his mindset isn't really that of a pure scorer. anyway, right or wrong i couldn't stay mad at pip.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:46 AM   #26
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

I'd be pissed. Paul Pierce losing it against the Pacers in Game 6 a few years back was bad, but at least he didn't betray the team. Pippen, on the other hand, possibly violated his contract, sold out his teammates, and showed no class whatsoever. It's a good thing for the Bulls that I wasn't running that team, because I'd have traded him that very offseason. And if Pierce pulled a stunt like that I'd want him gone. Without breaking the law, that's one of the worst things a player could ever do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
I'm not a Bulls fan but to this day I still think that was the moment that made me say "Phil Jackson is not the genius I was told he was". Pippen was the hands down best player on the floor throughout that whole series. He did pretty much as he pleased offensively. Kukoc on the other hand literally could only get baskets that others created for him.
That's pretty backward. The play did work, after all. A player is not entitled to anything not outlined in the terms of his contract, and a coach has the right to run the team as he sees fit. Plus, Jackson was actually right. Basketball, like all sports, is a situation where the ends justify the means (not talking about steroids or anything here, just strategy). If your plan works then it's a good plan, period.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:46 AM   #27
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
no i was super wrong. like not even close wrong. like if i hadn't got the stackhouse part right i would have been so far off that nobody would have known what the hell i was talking about....
What were you drinking cause I'm sure as hell going to have to try that.

Right now my favorites are Amaretto Sours, Screwdrivers, and Tom Collins'.

Oh, let me keep this semi-basketball related.... now that I think back on it Phil Jackson has a bit of a history drawing up crappy late-game/in-bounds plays.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:52 AM   #28
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
Sorry, can't view YouTube while. At work. Until I get home to check this you're wrong. Mike just made a good pass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYkyz...elated&search=

Here's a video of the Kukoc shot (hmmmm... notice SOMEBODY rather important MISSING on the floor...?)

It was a great call, a great play, and a great shot.

Pip with egg on his face.

1.8 is just enough for a quick catch, turn and shoot. A rookie Kukoc, even with all his struggles and lack of experience, is still a better option than Pippen for that type of play/shot.

Especially since EVERYONE would have been ZEROED-IN on Pip.

Kukoc was STILL able to get off a great look (only slightly contested; defender didnt even jump up to contest). Just IMAGINE the look he would've potentially gotten with Pip as the decoy (like PJ drew it up originally)

Like Kerr said in the quote I posted previously. Pippen had been the man ALL YEAR LONG, and to walk out on his team and his coach like that, on the big stage, when they needed him the most was shocking, dissapointing and COMPLETELY inexcusable.

When you get a chance, compare it to the Jordan/Stackhouse play I posted and see how Jordan was effective as a DECOY (by drawing the Lakers' best defender [Kobe] as far away from the rim as possible), leaving Stackhouse with a WIDE-OPEN dunk, and Bryant with no time to recover.

Jordan didn't even have to TOUCH the ball, yet he was still probably the most "important" player on that play, as the DECOY.

Looks like Doug Collins took a page from PJ's play-calling... :)
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
That's pretty backward. The play did work, after all. A player is not entitled to anything not outlined in the terms of his contract, and a coach has the right to run the team as he sees fit. Plus, Jackson was actually right. Basketball, like all sports, is a situation where the ends justify the means (not talking about steroids or anything here, just strategy). If your plan works then it's a good plan, period.
First, let me say Pippen was wrong in his actions. I just realized I didn't make that clear with my initial post. Pippen shouldn't have sat out. He should have played and then called Phil's mom everything but a child of god under his breath.

I see Pippen's side in that it does show a lack of appreciation; plus it was just a stupid play design.

I have never been a "ends justify the means" guy when it comes to strategy. My feeling has always been if its a tactic that can't regularly be successful in a given situation then it's nothing more than a hope and a prayer.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:59 AM   #30
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Default Re: Revisit: Pippen sat out the last 1.8 seconds in 1994; what if your star today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
I have never been a "ends justify the means" guy when it comes to strategy. My feeling has always been if its a tactic that can't regularly be successful in a given situation then it's nothing more than a hope and a prayer.
It was a decoy play in the clutch. The two or three times it might get used in a season it can be relied on because it catches the opposition by surprise. Kukoc was a good shooter having a bad series, Jackson kept his faith in him, and as we all know, that faith was rewarded. That wasn't a prayer, a "prayer" would be setting up a guy like Ben Wallace with a jumper. Remember, Kukoc was in fact skilled.
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