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Old 08-12-2007, 06:04 PM   #76
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by Loki
What part of "Kobe has never, in any season and in any situation, been nearly as dominant as Jordan was in any full season prior to age 35" don't people understand? Kobe the last 3 seasons isn't nearly as dominant as Jordan was, no matter whether you compare it to Jordan on a relatively poor team ('87-'89), Jordan at the same age as first option Kobe ('89-'91), or first option Kobe vs. any full season of Jordan's between age 22 and 35.


I just don't understand what people aren't getting. There's no way to look at this comparison that paints Kobe in a favorable light, or which suggests in the least that he'll be able to match or exceed Jordan's dominance in the next 5-7 seasons (especially since he'll be on the downside of his career for at least half that time).


It's just a joke the mental contortions people will go through to justify their ludicrous claims.

It's also funny that dudes that have never laced up for an NBA game disagree with guys that have played with or against both players. You can't get NBA players to doubt Kobe's abilities today. They all, from top to bottom say Kobe is one of the most dagerous players in the game today and could "possibly" be better at this point in his career than Jordan was when it comes to basketball ability. From Doug Collins and Mark Jackson to Stephon Marbury and Magic Johnson. NOBODY claims he's clearly better but it is not the ridiculous thought you Kobe bashers try to make it. Calm down an enjoy it.
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:21 PM   #77
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by White Chocolate
It's easier to go by games played, but that is his stats for that season, all of 18 games.

what the hell?

never said it wasn't, just that you can't calculate his 5 year averages that way.

am I talking to a cardboard box here?
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:24 PM   #78
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?



loki and dejordan having a field day with kobe nut huggers in this thread

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Old 08-12-2007, 06:27 PM   #79
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by Bigboi450
It's also funny that dudes that have never laced up for an NBA game disagree with guys that have played with or against both players. You can't get NBA players to doubt Kobe's abilities today. They all, from top to bottom say Kobe is one of the most dagerous players in the game today and could "possibly" be better at this point in his career than Jordan was when it comes to basketball ability. From Doug Collins and Mark Jackson to Stephon Marbury and Magic Johnson. NOBODY claims he's clearly better but it is not the ridiculous thought you Kobe bashers try to make it. Calm down an enjoy it.

Okay, what are you implying? that whether Kobe is better than Jordan is debateable among NBA players? You're saying if you ask NBA players and coaches, a plurality of them would say Kobe's better than Jordan?
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:33 PM   #80
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by Bigboi450
It's also funny that dudes that have never laced up for an NBA game disagree with guys that have played with or against both players. You can't get NBA players to doubt Kobe's abilities today. They all, from top to bottom say Kobe is one of the most dagerous players in the game today and could "possibly" be better at this point in his career than Jordan was when it comes to basketball ability. From Doug Collins and Mark Jackson to Stephon Marbury and Magic Johnson. NOBODY claims he's clearly better but it is not the ridiculous thought you Kobe bashers try to make it. Calm down an enjoy it.
The fact is it IS ridiculous to claim that.

Like I find it hilarious that Mental midgets like Poseidon and Dizzle actually tried to argue Kobe is a "better" scorer and "better at taking over". It's f*cking comedy.
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:35 PM   #81
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by WADE MONEY
Okay, what are you implying? that whether Kobe is better than Jordan is debateable among NBA players? You're saying if you ask NBA players and coaches, a plurality of them would say Kobe's better than Jordan?
now, now. it's clear what he's saying is that over the past season the people that he mentions have said things like "kobe's playing at a jordan level right now" (Collins) "he reminds me of michael" (Magic) "he'll wind up being the best player ever" (Mark Jackson), and they did say those things. not sure what steph said, but i'm sure it was something. he actually states that NOBODY is claiming that kobe is better RIGHT NOW, but that the argument is out there among informed individuals. which is true. of course it's actually been out there since about 2001 (is kobe better now than jordan was at the same age?!?!).

and actually re-reading the thread topic, i think i see what he's getting at. is kobe missing any skills that mj had outside of simple physical differences. and really i'd say not much. in terms of individual skillset kobe is on another planet from most players in the league. loki did a good job pointing out the differences in play style in first or second post, so i won't bother to re-hash, but i think the poster had more of point than we gave him credit for. i love watching kobe play and hate bashing him for not being mike. actually i usually defend him in arguments against other players, i just get annoyed when people try to close a gap without evidence or explanation.
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:36 PM   #82
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by ALlArOuNDPIaya
The fact is it IS ridiculous to claim that.

Like I find it hilarious that Mental midgets like Poseidon and Dizzle actually tried to argue Kobe is a "better" scorer and "better at taking over". It's f*cking comedy.

just curious, are you really allaroundplaya? You seem to have the same opinions, but I could've sworn you created the account (with the i in place of L) to imitate the real one
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:38 PM   #83
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by WADE MONEY
just curious, are you really allaroundplaya? You seem to have the same opinions, but I could've sworn you created the account (with the i in place of L) to imitate the real one

Yeah, I created this account on the old board to provide a voice a reason behind most of his ... unusual, claims.

So no, I'm not him.

Last edited by ALlArOuNDPIaya : 08-12-2007 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 08-12-2007, 06:49 PM   #84
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

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Originally Posted by Bigboi450
BTW, this whole argument is senseless because the paths don't line up. MJ had a 15-year career in which he came in at at 21, after three years at a championship caliber college program, to a struggling Bulls franchise that had no one of note on the roster. Jordan was drafted no. 3 and immediately put in the starting line up. Jordan had no one to power-struggle with and the offense was all about him (similar to what AI saw in Philly, for the youngsters that don't remember). AND we are looking at a completed career in one of the greatest eras of basketball to date.

Kobe had no college career, was drafted thirteenth then traded to the much celebrated Lakers with their pedigree of playoff and championship victory. Nevermind that Kobe would be competing for time with All-Star Eddie Jones, He was an 18 year-old kid on a team looking to make back-to-back playoff berths with, newly aquired, Shaq Oneal entering his prime. Kobe was on a playoff-bound championship contender before he took his first shot. He had to force the coach, players and the world to take notice of him because an 18 year-old rookie was going to get little burn regardless to how much game he had. In the coming years his game progressed and Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel all became obsolete. He worked hard to establish himself as a top tier NBA guard on a team that ran the bulk of their plays through the center (I would have done the same). Now that Shaq is gone we are starting to see a similar set up to the 84-85 Bulls. One extraordinary talent surrounded by some mediocre peripheral players. Put Jordan in that same situation, knowing how big a competitor he is at heart, he would not be much different than Kobe at this point. Jordan didn't just want to win or he would have stayed retired both times. He wanted to be the best ever. Would that kind of drive allow him to play Shaq's little brother while Oneal comes to camp overweight? Please!!!

Kobe will be 29 in a couple weeks. He has the potential to play this game 7-9 more years. Who knows what his career will look like by then? What if we looked at MJ's career at the half way point? We'd be looking at a high scoring All Star who never won the big one. Free Agency makes Kobe's future wide open. If KG, Ray and PP can get on the same team, and Jason Williams can get a ring before Mike Bibby then it's not too much to believe Kobe can one day get in the right situation and our grand kids will be wondering how we ever thought MJ was better than Kobe. I ain't saying it's so but it ain't impossible.

great post from the opposing viewpoint

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Old 08-12-2007, 07:39 PM   #85
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigboi450
BTW, this whole argument is senseless because the paths don't line up. MJ had a 15-year career in which he came in at at 21, after three years at a championship caliber college program, to a struggling Bulls franchise that had no one of note on the roster. Jordan was drafted no. 3 and immediately put in the starting line up. Jordan had no one to power-struggle with and the offense was all about him (similar to what AI saw in Philly, for the youngsters that don't remember). AND we are looking at a completed career in one of the greatest eras of basketball to date.

Kobe had no college career, was drafted thirteenth then traded to the much celebrated Lakers with their pedigree of playoff and championship victory. Nevermind that Kobe would be competing for time with All-Star Eddie Jones, He was an 18 year-old kid on a team looking to make back-to-back playoff berths with, newly aquired, Shaq Oneal entering his prime. Kobe was on a playoff-bound championship contender before he took his first shot. He had to force the coach, players and the world to take notice of him because an 18 year-old rookie was going to get little burn regardless to how much game he had. In the coming years his game progressed and Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel all became obsolete. He worked hard to establish himself as a top tier NBA guard on a team that ran the bulk of their plays through the center (I would have done the same). Now that Shaq is gone we are starting to see a similar set up to the 84-85 Bulls. One extraordinary talent surrounded by some mediocre peripheral players. Put Jordan in that same situation, knowing how big a competitor he is at heart, he would not be much different than Kobe at this point. Jordan didn't just want to win or he would have stayed retired both times. He wanted to be the best ever. Would that kind of drive allow him to play Shaq's little brother while Oneal comes to camp overweight? Please!!!

Kobe will be 29 in a couple weeks. He has the potential to play this game 7-9 more years. Who knows what his career will look like by then? What if we looked at MJ's career at the half way point? We'd be looking at a high scoring All Star who never won the big one. Free Agency makes Kobe's future wide open. If KG, Ray and PP can get on the same team, and Jason Williams can get a ring before Mike Bibby then it's not too much to believe Kobe can one day get in the right situation and our grand kids will be wondering how we ever thought MJ was better than Kobe. I ain't saying it's so but it ain't impossible.
this is all very well said. i would just make the following points:

1. in college jordan had no problem taking a backseat to worthy and perkins. winning was everything. so coming into the league at 21 on shaq's team there's no reason to think that there would be a power struggle. the problem might result in practice. Quote form Rod Thorn about MJ's rookie year - "He set the tone immediately to the point that, by the time we played our first regular season game, he already was our team leader. Almost every great player is a great competitor, but I've never seen anyone more competitive than Michael before or since then. Jordan didn't treat every practice like the world was at stake. He treated every drill that way." So I'm not sure Mike would have trouble deferring to Shaq as long as he thought the team was trying as hard as he was and wanted it as much as him. guys like nick the quick might be in for a hard time though.

2. i completely agree that they are on practically opposite career paths - jordan came into the league with nothing and had to build a competitive team from scratch, going so far as to actually train his all-star complement and pressure the necessary drive and confidence into everyone else. kobe came onto a championship caliber team in terms of talent and had to rise through the ranks (they didn't dump eddie and elden because they were unnecessary by the way - they dumped them because campbell couldn't play with shaq, shaq blamed eddie for the loss to utah, and they knew they couldn't pay eddie when his contract renewed). however, i would actually think that that could conceivably favor bryant in terms of stats / accomplishments. he was in position to win a lot of rings very quickly and then explode statistically as the lone gunman in his prime. i guess coming in so young hurt his chances of winning early despite all the talent around him, and in his statistical defense, he may not have hit his prime yet.

3. jordan did not come back to prove that he was the greatest ever. that just doesn't make sense. the overwhelming belief was that he had already earned that. the first come back was a huge risk, because if he didn't assert his dominance again, then people would argue that he was never really that good. and he did it because he saw a new challenge in the shaq / penny, payton / kemp combinations that were out there, and he's a competition junky who can't get enough. he wanted to test himself against the new generation (it's in his biography "Rebound"). the second time he could only hurt his legacy. his career averages took a significant hit. he was joining an empty team with no real shot at making the playoffs unless he was able to play better than any 38 year old ever had.

anyway like i said, you make a good point regarding the timeline of their careers. and i agree that one day someone will be better. i just don't think there's an argument to be made in favor of bryant right now.
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Old 08-12-2007, 08:31 PM   #86
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Ride them Jordan-horse, Loki, ride it good.
Thread was about a guy discussing about Kobe's wishful changes to a Jordan vs Kobe based on stacked up paper-stat fight in different eras and current. Nice going.

Things to change about Kobe hmmm... don't pass the ball and shoot it more!

Last edited by clayton : 08-12-2007 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 08-12-2007, 08:35 PM   #87
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

I wish he would be more religious like going to church like David robinson, the only reason why he goes to a church cuz there's a lot of little mexican girls there, its like a buffet for him.
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:44 PM   #88
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

I can really sympathize with Kobe there as a basketball player with small hands.
It's such a freaking BS.
I know guys less athletic than me that can dunk better only because their hands are bigger.
It's really a huge advantage when you have big hands because you can do things with the ball that people with small hands can only dream of doing.
It's a *****.
Damn you God. Why didn't you give me big hands? Damn.

As for Kobe vs Jordan debate, I too feel it's closer than most people on this site would say but I'm not really going to discuss it.
Jordan's better but the gap is close IMO. I think people would realize that if only Kobe had a real team.
Jordan's more athletic, a better slasher, defender but I feel Kobe's more skilled.

I'm positive that we still haven't seen the best of Kobe. Stay tuned.
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