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Old 07-30-2007, 03:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Horry sticks out like a sore thumb too.
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogon Vendetta
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_active.html

Active Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating: Season / Career / Active / Season-by-Season

Click on the Player for career statistics and accomplishments.

Note: Defensive Rating available since 1977-78 in NBA and since 1973-74 in ABA.

Minimum requirements
Name DRtg
1 Ben Wallace 93.3
2 Tim Duncan 93.7
3 Marcus Camby 97.2
4 Jermaine O'Neal 98.4
5 Yao Ming 98.6
6 Malik Rose 98.7
7 Kenyon Martin 98.9
8 Dikembe Mutombo 99.1
9 Shawn Marion 99.2
10 Alonzo Mourning 99.3
11 Kevin Garnett 99.5
12 Jeff Foster 99.5
13 Kelvin Cato 99.8
14 Tyson Chandler 100.0
15 Andrei Kirilenko 100.1
16 Rasho Nesterovic 100.4
17 Shaquille O'Neal 100.5
18 Theo Ratliff 100.8
19 Chris Webber 100.8
20 Rasheed Wallace 100.9
21 Jason Kidd 101.0
22 Robert Horry 101.0
23 Kurt Thomas 101.1
24 Ron Artest 101.3
25 Bonzi Wells 101.4
26 Bruce Bowen 101.7
27 Bo Outlaw 101.7
28 Jason Collins 101.7
29 Tony Parker 101.9
30 P.J. Brown 101.9
31 Aaron McKie 102.0
32 Jamaal Magloire 102.1
33 Jamaal Tinsley 102.2
34 Richard Jefferson 102.2
35 Austin Croshere 102.3
36 Zydrunas Ilgauskas 102.3
37 Dirk Nowitzki 102.4
38 Aaron Williams 102.4
39 Dale Davis 102.6
40 Eddie Jones 102.6
41 Paul Pierce 102.6
42 Donyell Marshall 102.8
43 Amare Stoudemire 103.0
44 Hedo Turkoglu 103.1
45 Antonio McDyess 103.1
46 LeBron James 103.1
47 Tracy McGrady 103.1
48 Kirk Hinrich 103.1
49 Baron Davis 103.2
50 Brevin Knight 103.3


Wait... no, he didn't make the top 50.

dude, you just made an idiot of yourself. Do YOU give ANY credibility to this list? SOOOOO many flaws...just one example: do you REALLY believe that Artest is the 24th best defender in the league? Bowen 26th?
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogon Vendetta
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_active.html


Minimum requirements
Name DRtg
1 Ben Wallace 93.3
2 Tim Duncan 93.7
3 Marcus Camby 97.2
4 Jermaine O'Neal 98.4
5 Yao Ming 98.6
6 Malik Rose 98.7
7 Kenyon Martin 98.9
8 Dikembe Mutombo 99.1
9 Shawn Marion 99.2
10 Alonzo Mourning 99.3
11 Kevin Garnett 99.5
12 Jeff Foster 99.5
13 Kelvin Cato 99.8
14 Tyson Chandler 100.0
15 Andrei Kirilenko 100.1
16 Rasho Nesterovic 100.4
17 Shaquille O'Neal 100.5
18 Theo Ratliff 100.8
19 Chris Webber 100.8
20 Rasheed Wallace 100.9
21 Jason Kidd 101.0
22 Robert Horry 101.0
23 Kurt Thomas 101.1
24 Ron Artest 101.3
25 Bonzi Wells 101.4
26 Bruce Bowen 101.7
27 Bo Outlaw 101.7
28 Jason Collins 101.7
29 Tony Parker 101.9
30 P.J. Brown 101.9
31 Aaron McKie 102.0
32 Jamaal Magloire 102.1
33 Jamaal Tinsley 102.2
34 Richard Jefferson 102.2
35 Austin Croshere 102.3
36 Zydrunas Ilgauskas 102.3
37 Dirk Nowitzki 102.4
38 Aaron Williams 102.4
39 Dale Davis 102.6
40 Eddie Jones 102.6
41 Paul Pierce 102.6
42 Donyell Marshall 102.8
43 Amare Stoudemire 103.0
44 Hedo Turkoglu 103.1
45 Antonio McDyess 103.1
46 LeBron James 103.1
47 Tracy McGrady 103.1
48 Kirk Hinrich 103.1
49 Baron Davis 103.2
50 Brevin Knight 103.3



Yeah, sure.
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Okay, dude, just stop and think for a second.

If you ask any NBA analyst/expert or NBA player who has ever played with/against kobe whether he is a good/great defender, I am guessing that most would respond that he is.

If you ask the same people the same question about a handful of players on your list, they would not say the same thing.

bottomline: you can't use that list to prove your point
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
Horry sticks out like a sore thumb too.

Not as bad as Hedo "freakin" Turkoglu. I have actually seen Horry shut people down in clutch and postseason situations.

People all over Turkey are celebrating in the streets. Their boy Hedo is a top 50 NBA defender.

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Old 07-30-2007, 03:17 PM   #21
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

What's the formula for this?
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

I think it gives too much weight to rebounds and that's why it favors big men. Jason Kidd is the first guard on the list at 21 and I'm assuming it's because he is the best rebounding guard in the league.
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisConley
I think it gives too much weight to rebounds and that's why it favors big men. Jason Kidd is the first guard on the list at 21 and I'm assuming it's because he is the best rebounding guard in the league.

The rebounding aspect makes sense, but interior defenders are much more valuable than perimeter defenders. Big men clog the lane, and take away penetration with their shotblocking skills, so they affect the game more. I want to see the formula for this list though, because it is just way off.
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Shogun, you had to have known that this list is flawed. Why would you put yourself out there like this knowing this list is nowhere near accurate... As soon as people saw Dirk on the list, you had to know there would be issues.

If you look at career numbers, this list indicates that Greg Ostertag is a better career defender than Michael Jordan...
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by r32soul
as for the rating system... that's total flawed. Most if not all would consider one of the best perimeter defensive player ever to play this game.. yet if you look at the career rankings, Jordan didn't make it to top 50. This alone, makes me think this system is flawed.

True enough that the system is not perfect by any means, but Jordan consistently rated 4-8 points below league average. Kobe, by contrast, was 3 points above league average this year, and actually hasn't been more than 2 points below league average since 2000 (and he's been significantly above league average 2 of the last 3 seasons). Kobe's largest amount below league average was 6 points, which was in 2000. Jordan had 3 seasons of 6 below league average, one season of 7 below, one of 8 below, and several seasons of 5 below league average. Kobe's had one season of 6 below back in 2000 and...that's it.


The thing that's shocking about Kobe's defensive selection this season is that every defensive metric of his was subpar: his defensive rating was 3 points above league average; his defensive +/- (as seen on 82games.com) was mediocre (the Lakers were actually better defensively with him on the bench); and his steal and block numbers are lackluster. Hell, even Tex Winter said that Bryant's defense hasn't been good. So why did he make first team again?
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
True enough that the system is not perfect by any means, but Jordan consistently rated 4-8 points below league average. Kobe, by contrast, was 3 points above league average this year, and actually hasn't been more than 2 points below league average since 2000 (and he's been significantly above league average 2 of the last 3 seasons). Kobe's largest amount below league average was 6 points, which was in 2000. Jordan had 3 seasons of 6 below league average, one season of 7 below, one of 8 below, and several seasons of 5 below league average. Kobe's had one season of 6 below back in 2000 and...that's it.


We understand your mortal fear of Kobe being considered in the same breath as your superhero... but, stop worrying.... Kobe will never come close to being as good as MJ.
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Hell, even Tex Winter said that Bryant's defense hasn't been good. So why did he make first team again?
yes tex's complaint with kobe is he rests on defense and gambles by playing his own zone defense in the passing lanes, tex even went on to say that kobe's defense screws up everyone elses because of his freelancing...kobe COULD be a really great defender if he chose to be but he doesn't chose to be, so he cannot be considered as one at this time...
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

1. Some of the guys being listed as bad defenders (to decry the list) are actually quite good. Kelvin Cato and Aaron Williams, when good and healthy, were a good defensive players. Jason Collins was a part of that NJ Nets rotation (two finals) only for defense. He was actually a better defender than rebounder.

Just because a player doesn't average 10 rebounds and 3 blocks, doesn't make them a poor defensive player. I watch a bunch of Collins, he was a fine defensive player (I think he 's had injuries or lost a touch of intensity, because it has fallen off).

2. this is my favorite Kobe argument - mostly because we've been hearing it since he came into the league:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
kobe COULD be a really great defender if he chose to be but he doesn't chose to be, so he cannot be considered as one at this time...
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:28 PM   #29
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
True enough that the system is not perfect by any means, but Jordan consistently rated 4-8 points below league average. Kobe, by contrast, was 3 points above league average this year, and actually hasn't been more than 2 points below league average since 2000 (and he's been significantly above league average 2 of the last 3 seasons). Kobe's largest amount below league average was 6 points, which was in 2000. Jordan had 3 seasons of 6 below league average, one season of 7 below, one of 8 below, and several seasons of 5 below league average. Kobe's had one season of 6 below back in 2000 and...that's it.

you say the system is flawed, yet you use it to support your argument? Just look at some of the players that are on the list.

On a sidenote, does anyone have a clue what this formula factors in? From what I read in the glossary it means points allowed per 100 possessions, right? But does it mean only the player you guard? Because everything is team defense. If it's just the player you guard, obviously big men have an advantage, because perimeter players are far better scorers.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: Kobe is a good defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
We understand your mortal fear of Kobe being considered in the same breath as your superhero... but, stop worrying.... Kobe will never come close to being as good as MJ.

There's no fear because there's no danger of that happening. I was just making a comment on something that perplexed me (Kobe's defensive first-team selection this year). I wasn't even the person who brought up Jordan's name; I only compared them because the poster I was replying to did.
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