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Old 07-28-2007, 11:30 PM   #1
michaelmanmoomoo
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Default The life and times of Gary Payton

The ONLY reason Payton stands out above other guards with similar stats is his defense. But that is no reason to put him on a pedastal above better all round players. Sure he won a coupe of DPOY awards but so did Dennis Rodman, he aslo averaged 17 rpg and was an INTEGRAL part of 5 championships (including 96).

I would rather have Dennis Rodman at my 4 spot and Joe Dumars, Isaih or Pippen playing point than have Kemp or anyone else from that time at the 4 and Payton running the point. It is a no brainer.

Rodman was such and outstanding defender that he guarded Jordan in the late 80s and early nineties when Chuck called upon him to do so, but he also had the versatility to guard a Kemp or a Malone.

If we are going to discuss Paytons DPOY awards (which you always seem to bring everything back to), tell me... when did he earn them?

Rodman earnt his when he did a job on Kemp (all-star), Malone (one of the greatest PF ever and MVP), James Worthy (all-star), Bird (one of the greatest ever) the list goes on... each oustanding defensive performance helped his team to a title. (5 in total)

Now lets look at Payton.

1994 - Chris Jackson (Abdul-Rauf)... Oh thats right... the Sonics were upset that year in the first round... ala GS v Dallas, except this series no one even considered the nuggets to win and im pretty sure ROBERT PACK dunked on the whole Sonics franchise. Im pretty sure that the Sonics won 68 games that year and Payton averaged less steals than Nate Mcmillan (who led the league) but Payton still got named in the all defensive team.

What YOU dont understand is this Sonics team that won 68 games pressed and somtimes ran a full court press on their opponents. This is something that you do not see much in the NBA, and every team struggled with their Press. Now please listen carefully.... Gary Payton CANNOT press a team by himself. Basketball is a team sport. THis press lead to a high ammount of turnovers for opponents and thus explaining why so many Sonics players had high steal averages (Kemp 1.8spg, Payton 2.3 spg, Askew 1spg, Mcmillan 3spg, Perkins - Pierce - Detlef 1spg and Gill 2 spg)

Payton was at the top of this press and was a very good defender, but he was also srrounded by geat defenders like Gill, McMillan, Pierce and Askew.

Payton received a lot of individual credit for his TEAMS defensive efforts but he did not possess the ability to change the game in his own right like DPOY Hakeem the Dream - who contributed all his success to his team. HUMBLE is a word that Payton might not understand. Payton did try to change a series in 96 by attemting to guard Jordan, like others before him he did tug on Supermans cape for a little while (Starks)but could not handle the heat in the kitchen.

As far as I know, the only team to STOP an NBA fit and ready Jordan in his prime were the Pistons. With DPOY and rebounding champion Dennis Rodman who had the ability to change games with his defense while Payton only had the ability to be a solid defender.

I would love for you to inform me of when Payton did achieve something of worth through his defense... Like a shutting down a great player to win a championship for his team, but im pretty sure that you can't.

Ask big Pat or Shaq about Hakeem, ask Malone or Kemp or Worthy about Rodman, ask Wilt about Bill, ask Drexler about Jordan, ask Magic about Pippen, they will all atest to their greatness as defenders who were winners and changed entire series through their play. Payton just fed Kemp in the post and played good defense in a league where point guards were not considered the first offensive option, not untill Iverson came along.

1995 - Next we have Nick Van Excel the following year when a 57 win Sonics team lost int he first round to a 48 win Lakers team led by Ceballos.... once again Payton all first team defense (with Mookie Blaylock.. haha) but did not produce some pressure time. Payton was third in the league in steals behind Pip and Blaylock, just above Stockton.

1996 - We all know about 1996.
Payton managed to hold back TYUS EDNEY in the first round and a 2nd year Sam Cassell (no Kenny Smith or Vernon Maxwell)in the second round in which Kemp dominated Robert Horry. The best series a Sonics team has put together. Then the Sonics went one better beating the Jazz, Stockon had a good series but Payton did restrict him and they won in 7 games. The Bulls rolled to the title in 6.
Now, Payton won DPOY (maybe because he actually led the league in steals this year above Pippen and JOrdan). Rodman, Pippen and Jordan were all named in the Defensive first team. The SOnics won 64 games but were lacking a stand out (jordan like) perfromance in the finals... Someone needed to step up and change the series but.... Kemp couldn't... Rodman had his number, Payton couldn't... he never could, he did not possess the ability, he was a great defender but he was chicken feed to a plyer like Jordan.

Jordan overwhelmed people with this ability, not only physically but mentally, Payton never stood a chance and only attempted guard him for two games, throwing double teams at Jordan when he posted Payton up. This was a good move by Seattle, but you would probably expect a 64 win Sonics team to defend their home court but the Bulls still took a one game and thats all they needed. Payton was the fourth best defesive player on the court that series behind Pippen, Jordan and Rodman, he was the fourth best player behind Jordan, Pippen and Kemp in that series.

1997 - Payton had his best year statistically. Doug Christie and Mookie averaged more steals and they lost in the second round to Houston.
Tim Hardaway was the best point guard in the league that year named to the All NBA first team and Mutumbo was DPOY (11.6 rpg, 3.3 bpg - Rodman 16.1 rpg)

Payton averaged 21 ppg 7.1 apg, 4rpg and 2.4 spg. Once again another good year but not 28th best player of all time.

1998 - Sonics won 68 games. Payton was 4th in the league in steals, once again did not register top five in anything else. He was named in the NBA first team and defensive team. Vin Baker (SEA) was named Second Team all NBA. Mookie Blaylock was finally recognised and named defensive second team.
The Sonics (again) didnt make it past the second round and were beaten by the Lakers.

1999 - This is the first year that Payton did not have Kemp, or a PRIME (all nba second team) Vin Baker and the Sonics FAILED to make the Playoffs.
Reducing Payton back to what he really is... a great defender, good point guard, but needs a stand out big man to win games. Not a major influence by himself.
Allen Iverson (2nd year) was named All NBA first team but Payton did win All defensive team honours... but was not top five in steals (Iverson and Kidd both were) and Payton was All NBA second team with Tim Hardaway.

MOOKIE BLAYLOCK was named the second best defensive point guard in the league (again), so as you can see, Payton had huge competition in terms of defensive minded point guards in the NBA at that time.

Payton matched with Kemp was a great duo, but without Kemp Payton had no success. He beat out Mookie three times and Brevin Knight twice and was named to All NBA defensive teams even though he never figured in any major statistical category and never proceeded to back up any defensive accolade with a rememorable or series winning performance. He was beat out for all nba team honours by the likes of Tim Hardaway and he was never named MVP and never led his team to a title.

No matter what you say in this forum Glove_20, 10 years down the track no one will look back and say - remember when Payton stopped Jordan to win a title? remember when Payton led the 60 win Sonics to a ring? remember when Payton won MVP for his all round greatness? remember when Payton dunked on someone? remember when Payton was the best player in the league?

Because none of the above EVER happened.

In 10 years everybody (except you on your 25th birthday) will look back and say.
Remember Gary payton? - he was a great defender, remember the skinny boy who threw lobs to Kemp? - oh yeah! that was Gary Payton! I remember him... Remember when the Nuggets beat the Sonics in the first round? Oh yeah... Robert Pack dunked on everyone! I remember that. I think the Sonics made the Finals? Yeah they did they played the Bulls.. Oh yeah, one of the Bulls victims... Oh well. Poor Gary, he deserved a ring for his hussle. He did get one! When? He came off the bench for the Heat in 06? Oh yeah! D Wade averaged 31 points that series and they came from 0 -2 down. I remember that... Mark Cuban was so angry... yeah do you remember how red his face got? yeah it was real red. Who were we talking about again?
Ummmm.. Gary Payton!........the one that was a great defenderOh yeah... the skinny boy who used to throw lobs to Kemp

Last edited by michaelmanmoomoo : 07-28-2007 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

yes GP is not top 5 pg but please stop making the same thread over and over again. you cant convince glove_20 even if you make 100 threads
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Why didn't you put this in the thread you made 'Attention Glove 20'?Just wasting bandwith. *grabs popcorn* This is going to be good, especially if you stick around.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Quote:
Originally Posted by brantonli
Why didn't you put this in the thread you made 'Attention Glove 20'?Just wasting bandwith. *grabs popcorn* This is going to be good, especially if you stick around.

Glove_20 said that he was not going to comment on the other thread anymore so I started a new thread for him.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmanmoomoo
Glove_20 said that he was not going to comment on the other thread anymore so I started a new thread for him.

dude, you need to get over your glove issues. everybody has their fav player. glove20 could do a LOT worse than The Glove.

btw, The Glove was an incredibly gifted PG who will be in the HOF. And that should be enuf for you to stop bothering with this rant...and ignore glove20.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

You obviously hate GP, Glove_GP obviously loves GP and other people are in the middle. Most of us thinks he's really good but not Top 5 pg good and not Top 30 all time good. So just stop it, your debete is going no where
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:51 PM   #7
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
dude, you need to get over your glove issues. everybody has their fav player. glove20 could do a LOT worse than The Glove.

btw, The Glove was an incredibly gifted PG who will be in the HOF. And that should be enuf for you to stop bothering with this rant...and ignore glove20.


I agree.

I agree that he is incredibly gifted and that he could possibly become a Hall of Famer.

But I dont like GLove_20 making unrealistic biased comments and I want him to accept that Payton is great, but not the 28th best player ever and barely a top ten point guard ever.

and I get a commic relief from watching him make his silly replies trying to defend Payton by attacking individuals, instead of backing his talk up with facts.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Quote:
Originally Posted by trig
You obviously hate GP, Glove_GP obviously loves GP and other people are in the middle. Most of us thinks he's really good but not Top 5 pg good and not Top 30 all time good. So just stop it, your debete is going no where


I like Gary Payton.

He is one of my favourite point guards.

Maybe you should only comment on threads that interest you and stop worrying about what I am doing...

Or do you own the rights to this website?
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

I don't know, it's not that payton was that good but you can't just say someone deserve less credit for something cause of lack of compitition. I mean, wat are they suppose to do, bring back walt and russell from the grave?
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:06 AM   #10
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Payton is GARBAGE.
SMUSH parker >>>> Payton
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

I stopped after the second paragraph. It is a pretty worthless rant just to go out of your way to diss a player. Usually people make appreciation threads but this is just plain worthless.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
I stopped after the second paragraph. It is a pretty worthless rant just to go out of your way to diss a player. Usually people make appreciation threads but this is just plain worthless.

I would stop too if it took me half an hour to read two paragraphs.

Is it as worthless as trying to display a tough guy image on a forum?

Please dont pistol whip me jailblazer7... Im scared
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:19 AM   #13
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemondude
I don't know, it's not that payton was that good but you can't just say someone deserve less credit for something cause of lack of compitition. I mean, wat are they suppose to do, bring back walt and russell from the grave?


If you read carefully you will notice that I mentioned he was against poor competition like Mookie, but people like Mookie, Christie and Gill still had better defensive stats than him. So didnt have much competition but he still wasnt better than them statistically, which is why people tend to think he is overrated defensively.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

:rollingeyes:

I've never seen a more stupid and unintelligent post than that.


I wish you had your facts straight, twice you said the Sonics won 68 games, that never happened.




Honestly, if you can convince 1 poster, not even me, but anyone (and not your alternate accounts Jeff said you had, I saw one of them, Gibbo on the last thread), yeah, if you can convince anyone with that post, and I mean really convince them, someone with a solid background, you win.



Because really, no one on ISH with half a brain is going to look at that and say "that was a good post". No one. It was really that bad.


Forget convincing me, your not convincing anyone.



I'm not going to post on this thread anymore, and this time you are staying on my ignore list.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: The life and times of Gary Payton

Get a room. You two make me sick.
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