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Old 07-27-2007, 12:38 AM   #31
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.

I was about to state this earlier. There have been so many really good players that never quite achieved that level of greatness wether it be Cowens, KJ, KG, Mchale, Worthy, etc. over the years that can be put in that 40-70 range. The really isnt that much seperation between these players so it really comes down to personal preference and not as much cut from stone facts and stats. One person could be a huge Worthy fan and put him at say #38 while they put KJ at #55 because he never really xared much about him. Another person could just switch that based on the same reasons.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:41 AM   #32
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
I was about to state this earlier. There have been so many really good players that never quite achieved that level of greatness wether it be Cowens, KJ, KG, Mchale, Worthy, etc. over the years that can be put in that 40-70 range. The really isnt that much seperation between these players so it really comes down to personal preference and not as much cut from stone facts and stats. One person could be a huge Worthy fan and put him at say #38 while they put KJ at #55 because he never really xared much about him. Another person could just switch that based on the same reasons.
But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:44 AM   #33
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Shaq's games per season is lower than KJ's. Wilt's games per season is lower than KJ's. Tiny's games per season is lower than KJ's. And there are many more legends who's games per season is lower than KJ's. Yet I don't see them ever get that. Wilt is on ISH's spot number 2, where was that argument for him. It never occurs. It should, it should occur even against KJ. But it shouldn't be that strong to take him off, when other greats are injured even more.


And just remember one thing. Kevin Johnson never has missd a playoff game. Meaning when it counts, he is there. And if your a team that wants to make a championship run, KJ's injuries shouldn't hurt you too much.

The difference is that he didn't dominate anywhere near the way they did, he was on par with a lot of guys, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, Porter, Mark Price.. etc... Frankly, I do mark Shaq down for his health issues, but when he's been healthy, he's like someone from another planet, he was obviously much better than 99+% of the players. Not to mention all the awards, and rings, statistics those guys had. We're arguing entire careers, here... The arguement for him being healthy for the playoffs doesn't mean much too me... If he hadn't been healthy, then we wouldn't even be talking about him at all right now, because then it would really seem far-fetched.

And Wilt was not constantly injured, he had one year he missed a bunch of games, not to mention that he played more minutes per game than any other player.

There's too many other good players out there to put KJ so high. If KJ had been healthier, had a longer career, or won a bunch of rings, MVP's etc. then it would have been a different story.

KJ is quietly under-rated because he didn't play long enough, and got injured so much... kinda like Bernard King or something. But at the time he was playing, KJ got lots of notoriety, there were just other players that were about as good as he was that got further in the playoffs, and stayed healthy. KJ's health is what worked against him getting awards and things, but people knew he was one of the best when healthy.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:47 AM   #34
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.

Im not all that knowledgable on either player so I cant really argue and see the seperation but i think it is the time effect. People 25 and under wont really know that much about Tiny but the one thing they do know and what stands out is him leading the league in points and assists in the same year. That is quite a feat to accomplish and people will often base their reasoning on that little information.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:55 AM   #35
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

Thing with this is every player from 35 and down has some flaw that keeps them that low. Something someone good with words who knows not to come off too crazy or aggressive could point out. For examples...Dave Cowens, bob Mcadoo, Pistol Pete, and Nique. Those are guys people might argue for in this range.

Cowens was arguably not the best player on his own team even as MVP. Hondo had insane numbers and got the love at the time from Boston. And Jojo White got him for a finals MVP too. Added to that he only had 5 healthy all star seasons.

Mcadoo had a brief prime and was a role player(important one but still) by the time he won anything important.

Pistol Pete never won anything period.

Nique would be called just a scorer who never led a team as close to a title as KJ and never beat a team as good as the showtime lakers KJ beat.


All of that is true. The guys outside the elite are there for a reason. They were great....but didnt do anything to seperate themselves like the true all time elites did.

Because of it they dont have much one can use to dismiss a guy like KJ who was well rounded, with great numbers, and won a good bit(for a non all time elite).

But to put him that high you have to go against a lot of the usual standards people rank players by. Have to dismiss MVPs....titles...guys who had crazy high peaks but got hurt...innovators...all nba teams...reputation.

KJ did juuuuuuuust enough to earn mention in that long list that comes after 30 but before 100 but to put him closer to 30 than 100 takes a lot of work and a strong desire to put him as high as possible with no concern for the greatness or respect owed to a lot of legends.

Its easier to say "KJ is top 30-40" than to explain "If hes top 30-40 how come Tim Hardaway/Mark Price/Chris Mullin arent when they were considered on the same level in their primes?"

Its the biggest problem with ranking modern(even kinda modern) players so high. There are always guys we remember who were considered just as good....but dont get that credit now.

KJ is one of my favorite players of the 80s/90s but in all honesty....him at his peak vs Spre at his...Sprewell was probably considered the better player. I wouldnt say so. But in the 90s and late 80s KJ didnt seperate himself in the eye of the public from plenty of guys who nobody would dream of ranking this high.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:58 AM   #36
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
Im not all that knowledgable on either player so I cant really argue and see the seperation but i think it is the time effect. People 25 and under wont really know that much about Tiny but the one thing they do know and what stands out is him leading the league in points and assists in the same year. That is quite a feat to accomplish and people will often base their reasoning on that little information.

Yeah exactly. They just go off with little reasoning or information, and just see that he led the points and assits in the same year, nothing else.

But if you actually looked closely, Tiny is overrated. And he really isn't in the same tier as a great PG like Kevin Johnson
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:58 AM   #37
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.
Nate the Skate is a better player then KJ. I'll admit Tiny is overrated as KJ is underrated. They were both injured a ton during their career's (Tiny not as much as KJ) but when healthy, Tiny's numbers and acomplishments were better. KJ had better teams, as Tiny played with bums is Kansas City/Omaha
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:03 AM   #38
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Originally Posted by Chalkmaze
The difference is that he didn't dominate anywhere near the way they did, he was on par with a lot of guys, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, Porter, Mark Price.. etc... Frankly, I do mark Shaq down for his health issues, but when he's been healthy, he's like someone from another planet, he was obviously much better than 99+% of the players. Not to mention all the awards, and rings, statistics those guys had. We're arguing entire careers, here... The arguement for him being healthy for the playoffs doesn't mean much too me... If he hadn't been healthy, then we wouldn't even be talking about him at all right now, because then it would really seem far-fetched.

And Wilt was not constantly injured, he had one year he missed a bunch of games, not to mention that he played more minutes per game than any other player.

There's too many other good players out there to put KJ so high. If KJ had been healthier, had a longer career, or won a bunch of rings, MVP's etc. then it would have been a different story.

KJ is quietly under-rated because he didn't play long enough, and got injured so much... kinda like Bernard King or something. But at the time he was playing, KJ got lots of notoriety, there were just other players that were about as good as he was that got further in the playoffs, and stayed healthy. KJ's health is what worked against him getting awards and things, but people knew he was one of the best when healthy.

Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.


But yeah, I could see injuries as an argument against KJ, but not "No shot because of that". Because it wasn't that bad. He did though have 9 prime years. Long as most greats, and his consider average, so he was able to play at a high level long enough.

But yeah, KJ also dominated, there is no doubt about that. And also, Tiny Archibald, who was way more injury prone, still shows up in All-Time arguments, but not KJ. So it was more than injuries. He is just generally underrated.

And yeah, with him being underrated, awards were tough to get as well.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:07 AM   #39
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.

Who the better player is isnt really my concern but I can tell you why I think many would rank Tiny higher.....


He peaked higher. 34/11 and second in MVP voting.
He didnt win as much in his youth but he didnt have the teammates. Ive heard his old coach mention that they had among the worst teams in the league and thats why he had to do everything. He played all 48 minutes like 50-60 times that season. He was on a terrible team that needed him. Not his fault they lost.
Even though his rep is as an injured player he only played under 70 games 5 times before age 34 and 2 of them were 68 and 69 games.
Even with injury issues he was an all star 6 times to KJs 3.
He was all nba first team 3 times to KJs none.
He scored more.
He was very good for the celtics(3 of his 6 all star games were with Boston). Many consider him the second best player on the 81 title team and he was the locker room leader and the captian of the team not Bird. He was also the all star MVP that year. his boston days are overlooked.

No matter if hes better or not...he did a good bit in his career. And hes got enough of those usual key features that get you noticed. He has a major record(only points and assists leader). He was nearly MVP(TSN voted him MVP one year). He won a title as a key player.

Hes got a lot going for him.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:10 AM   #40
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.


But yeah, I could see injuries as an argument against KJ, but not "No shot because of that". Because it wasn't that bad. He did though have 9 prime years. Long as most greats, and his consider average, so he was able to play at a high level long enough.

But yeah, KJ also dominated, there is no doubt about that. And also, Tiny Archibald, who was way more injury prone, still shows up in All-Time arguments, but not KJ. So it was more than injuries. He is just generally underrated.

And yeah, with him being underrated, awards were tough to get as well.
Elgin only really had two injury season where he missed a lot of games (not counting his last 2 seasons where he played a combined 11 games). The season he only played 48 games he was also in the Marines so he could only play games (either during the week or on the weekend, can't remember)
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:14 AM   #41
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.

Just so you know....

Elgin played before the league bumped up its games per season. The NBA only played 72 games his first couple years. Then it moved to 79. I think it stopped at like 80 and 81 too. He didnt have an injured season till he was 30. In 62 he wasnt hurt. He was in the Army and they called him to serve. They only let him play 2 times a week. Thats why his numbers were so insane that year(38/19). He wanted to make sure they won every game he got to play. he had played 12 of his 14 seasons before he got a major injury.

Edit.

Beat me to it.

Lot of the old guys have some odd set of circumstances that has them playing fewer games than guys do today if you just look at the number played and dont check it beyond that.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:33 AM   #42
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

KJ is my all time favorite Sun along with Rex Chapman.

He was one of the best penetrators I have ever seen at the PG position. I remember watching him play while I was growing up and thinking to myself that he could not be stopped when he really wanted to get to the rim.

Also strange to me to see them playing at good ol Veteran's Memorial.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:34 AM   #43
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Thing with this is every player from 35 and down has some flaw that keeps them that low. Something someone good with words who knows not to come off too crazy or aggressive could point out. For examples...Dave Cowens, bob Mcadoo, Pistol Pete, and Nique. Those are guys people might argue for in this range.

Cowens was arguably not the best player on his own team even as MVP. Hondo had insane numbers and got the love at the time from Boston. And Jojo White got him for a finals MVP too. Added to that he only had 5 healthy all star seasons.

Mcadoo had a brief prime and was a role player(important one but still) by the time he won anything important.

Pistol Pete never won anything period.

Nique would be called just a scorer who never led a team as close to a title as KJ and never beat a team as good as the showtime lakers KJ beat.


All of that is true. The guys outside the elite are there for a reason. They were great....but didnt do anything to seperate themselves like the true all time elites did.

Because of it they dont have much one can use to dismiss a guy like KJ who was well rounded, with great numbers, and won a good bit(for a non all time elite).

But to put him that high you have to go against a lot of the usual standards people rank players by. Have to dismiss MVPs....titles...guys who had crazy high peaks but got hurt...innovators...all nba teams...reputation.

KJ did juuuuuuuust enough to earn mention in that long list that comes after 30 but before 100 but to put him closer to 30 than 100 takes a lot of work and a strong desire to put him as high as possible with no concern for the greatness or respect owed to a lot of legends.

Its easier to say "KJ is top 30-40" than to explain "If hes top 30-40 how come Tim Hardaway/Mark Price/Chris Mullin arent when they were considered on the same level in their primes?"

Its the biggest problem with ranking modern(even kinda modern) players so high. There are always guys we remember who were considered just as good....but dont get that credit now.

KJ is one of my favorite players of the 80s/90s but in all honesty....him at his peak vs Spre at his...Sprewell was probably considered the better player. I wouldnt say so. But in the 90s and late 80s KJ didnt seperate himself in the eye of the public from plenty of guys who nobody would dream of ranking this high.

I see what your saying on there isn't too much seperation between players after 30. After a little bit, it goes from "great" to "very good". And that very good is the 30-100 you were talking about.

But in that "very good" KJ sticks out. The only thing he was lacking was a ring. But everything else, he is nearly perfect. He had some injury problems, but so have many other stars, and his wasn't "that" bad. I think he only had 4 injury seasons as well. Seasons where he missed 16 games or more. Not that bad.

And once again, I really think the fact that he has played every playoff game makes up for a lot of it. He has been there when it counts. If your a team wanting to win the championship, having KJ is perfect. He will be there for you in the playoffs, when the "wins" and "losses" count the most. And he will perform at a high level. One of the guy's that stepped it up in the playoffs.

But bottom line, KJ really sticks out in the "Very Good 30-100" section. He really reallly is good.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:47 AM   #44
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Who the better player is isnt really my concern but I can tell you why I think many would rank Tiny higher.....


He peaked higher. 34/11 and second in MVP voting.
He didnt win as much in his youth but he didnt have the teammates. Ive heard his old coach mention that they had among the worst teams in the league and thats why he had to do everything. He played all 48 minutes like 50-60 times that season. He was on a terrible team that needed him. Not his fault they lost.
Even though his rep is as an injured player he only played under 70 games 5 times before age 34 and 2 of them were 68 and 69 games.
Even with injury issues he was an all star 6 times to KJs 3.
He was all nba first team 3 times to KJs none.
He scored more.
He was very good for the celtics(3 of his 6 all star games were with Boston). Many consider him the second best player on the 81 title team and he was the locker room leader and the captian of the team not Bird. He was also the all star MVP that year. his boston days are overlooked.

No matter if hes better or not...he did a good bit in his career. And hes got enough of those usual key features that get you noticed. He has a major record(only points and assists leader). He was nearly MVP(TSN voted him MVP one year). He won a title as a key player.

Hes got a lot going for him.


34/11? Thats great, but he didn't even make playoffs.

Actually, he only made the playoffs once in his prime. 1 playoff app. in his prime

Honestly, I don't know how someone can rank a player who has been to the playoffs once in his prime, over a player who has been to the playoffs every year besides his rookie year where he only played 28 games for his team because of a trade.

Sure he had a bad starcast around him but,

1. He dominated the ball too much for them to even get involve or improve


Gary Payton in 2000, he had a bad starcast, worse than some of Archibald's, yet he was able to take his team to the playoffs.



The difference also between both of them is KJ makes his teammates better. Where Archibald doesn't, and that also explains his lack of good starcasts around him. Eddie Johnson and Tom Chambers both had their best years in Phoenix. And Chambers even sadi "KJ made me the player I am today" at his peak.


1 playoff appearance in his prime, no matter how bad your starcast is, thats just unacceptable. He was also traded to 3 DIFFERENT teams in his prime, yet still 1 playoff app in his prime.



As for Tiny's numbers. The main reason he put up such high numbers was because he controlled the ball all the time. His didn't think too highly of his teammates, and always had the ball, bringing up his overall numbers.

Seriously, whats the point of all the great numbers if your team isn't winning? 34/11, thats great, but you don't even make it to the playoffs.

Its not that hard to put up good numbers, when you dominate the ball, and actually lessen your chances of winning, while putting up good numbers.





There more advantages for KJ, but I think you get the point.
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:02 AM   #45
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Default Re: Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

He dominated the ball too much? While looking for footage for this I watched an NBA video called "Below the rim" on the all time best little men. tiny was in there. his coach and teammates didnt seem to think he dominated the ball too much. They seemed to think he did as asked. His coach flat out said he asked him to do everything to make up for the lack of talent on the team. I tend to side with the people who played with and coached him. Sure he had a scorers mentality but its hard to blame him for doing as asked or to say he hurt his teammates when ive heard his teammates say otherwise and talk up how good he was at finding them.
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