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Old 07-07-2007, 05:14 PM   #76
DCL
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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Originally Posted by haji_d_robertas
I am talking about the exceptional talents of the 40's-60's.

how come you're stuck with this notion as if talent was fixed for all generations, as if the talent needed for one period was going to be good enough for the next, while totally disregarding the difference of competition and evolutionary factors? what year were you born? i'm not "hating" the 40s, but objectively speaking, the talents of the 40's don't compare to the talent of modern eras.

Quote:
against a smaller group of ultra competitive players who played for the love of the game and for much less money?

the money has nothing to do with whether a player has game or not. if a player wasn't paid anything but had game, then he had game. if a player was overpaid but couldn't produce, then he didn't have game. how they were paid is irrelevant.

Quote:
I did not once dismiss the NBA of today, I simply said that people who were gifted then, would still be gifted today and able to adapt to today's circumstances because there is more to a basketball player than post moves and dribbling skills.

again, that's only your assumption. you pretend to know for sure that levels required to dominate each era only required equal talent levels across the board, but what you fail to understand is there are always ceiling levels to talent levels, and not all talent is the same. a guy with enough talent to dominate the 40s may not have enough talent to dominate in later eras. i'm telling you that using "what-if" scenarios has no conclusive certainty. you said you agree to this too, but you keep on using them in your logic. it's just a bunch of "what-if's" and there's nothing for you to gauge on other than suppositions.


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I'm not talking about unknown players in a third world country, I'm talking about people who played the game you know as basketball in a different era. These players worked their asses off and as usual, some rose to the top because why? because they had a gift. It may have been the gift of a drive to win, or incredible self-confidence, or height and strength, or higher intelligence, or quickness. I'm saying gifted people always rise up to any challenge.

the skill they possessed may had been enough for them to play the game for that era, but there's no certainty that it was enough when the game became a lot more developed and competitive. having work ethic is not enough. having self-confidence is not enough. it's not automatic success if you have those things. there are guys in the nbdl with work ethic and confidence but never make it. mikan could had worked out in the gym forever and still never had reached the highest level to dominate in modern times. you keep on saying that he just had talent, but you don't even know what that talent ceiling is because he never showed it. every potential you talk about him is just based on assumption. well, no one here is assuming anything here. i'm just judging him according to what level he had instead of trying to know for sure how he'd do if he stepped into a time machine. the "what-if" cases are just weak to use.


Quote:
I didn't say that Mikan would dominate today, I was questioning the logic that is being used to make the assumption that players from the past would be overmatched today simply because they are from the past.

i said there's no way to accurately determine how high their true potential was just because they didn't have the opportunity. you keep on saying that some players from the past could had matched today's players if they all were given the same opportunities and had been in the same environment. well, guess what you're doing right now? using a bunch of "what-if's" again. what if sabonis was allowed to play in the u.s. when he was 21? what if this or that guy never had to work and only had to play basketball? what if, what if, what if. that stuff doesn't mean anything.
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Old 07-07-2007, 07:16 PM   #77
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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how come you're stuck with this notion as if talent was fixed for all generations, as if the talent needed for one period was going to be good enough for the next, while totally disregarding the difference of competition and evolutionary factors? what year were you born? i'm not "hating" the 40s, but objectively speaking, the talents of the 40's don't compare to the talent of modern eras.
So what is your cutoff date for talent? 1984? 1967? 1998? when exactly do great atheletes stop being relevant in your opinion?


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the money has nothing to do with whether a player has game or not. if a player wasn't paid anything but had game, then he had game. if a player was overpaid but couldn't produce, then he didn't have game. how they were paid is irrelevant.


So do you agree that the best basketball players would do it no matter how much or how little they were paid?


Quote:
again, that's only your assumption. you pretend to know for sure that levels required to dominate each era only required equal talent levels across the board, but what you fail to understand is there are always ceiling levels to talent levels, and not all talent is the same. a guy with enough talent to dominate the 40s may not have enough talent to dominate in later eras. i'm telling you that using "what-if" scenarios has no conclusive certainty. you said you agree to this too, but you keep on using them in your logic. it's just a bunch of "what-if's" and there's nothing for you to gauge on other than suppositions.


But you are also using "what-if's" to suppose that players from the past would absolutely for certain not be dominant in this era. You don't know that, what I am saying is that the best players of every era of basketball had something special that set them apart from the others they played against. Let's call it "basketball genius." If they have it, they have it. How come Bird was so dominant in his era? he wasn't the fastest, or the most athletic? What did he have? Was it the same thing Jordan had? Dr. J? Wilt Chamberlain?
Bill Russell? Why were they so different from George Mikan or members of the Harlem Globetrotters?



Quote:
the skill they possessed may had been enough for them to play the game for that era, but there's no certainty that it was enough when the game became a lot more developed and competitive. having work ethic is not enough. having self-confidence is not enough. it's not automatic success if you have those things. there are guys in the nbdl with work ethic and confidence but never make it. mikan could had worked out in the gym forever and still never had reached the highest level to dominate in modern times. you keep on saying that he just had talent, but you don't even know what that talent ceiling is because he never showed it. every potential you talk about him is just based on assumption. well, no one here is assuming anything here. i'm just judging him according to what level he had instead of trying to know for sure how he'd do if he stepped into a time machine. the "what-if" cases are just weak to use.

You talk as if these guys played ball 2000 years ago. The best players from any era, and I mean from right now all the way back, have more than just self confidence and work ethic, they are the best of the best, they are above and beyond NBDL players for a reason. What is the reason? Can you tell me?


Quote:
i said there's no way to accurately determine how high their true potential was just because they didn't have the opportunity. you keep on saying that some players from the past could had matched today's players if they all were given the same opportunities and had been in the same environment. well, guess what you're doing right now? using a bunch of "what-if's" again. what if sabonis was allowed to play in the u.s. when he was 21? what if this or that guy never had to work and only had to play basketball? what if, what if, what if. that stuff doesn't mean anything.

I am talking about players who did have an opportunity to play in the NBA and whose stats are recorded, I am questioning your irrational attachment to the so-called "modern era." I am trying to find out when you consider NBA basketball players to no longer have any relevance or value, what if you came right out and said when it is that you think these NBA players should dissapear from our collective view?
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:32 PM   #78
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by haji_d_robertas
So what is your cutoff date for talent? 1984? 1967? 1998? when exactly do great atheletes stop being relevant in your opinion?

there's no exact cutoff date. it's a progressive evolution. i'd say players have been getting better every decade except for maybe the last one, especially the center spot. but power forwards today are as good as ever. guards don't seem to shoot as well as the time when i first started watching, but they're a lot better than the 60's guys who still didn't even have their mechanics down. generally, guys these days have more all-around skills than before. and the general athleticism of the current players of the league is certainly a lot higher. but regardless, there's no cutoff line when you're talking about evolution because it's always changing. today's game is a lot more competitive and developed than 40's basketball, would you agree to that basic idea?



Quote:
So do you agree that the best basketball players would do it no matter how much or how little they were paid?

money doesn't make anyone into a good basketball player. but being good in basketball can help one make a lot of money. income doesn't determine how good a guy is. it's the other way around.


Quote:
But you are also using "what-if's" to suppose that players from the past would absolutely for certain not be dominant in this era. You don't know that, what I am saying is that the best players of every era of basketball had something special that set them apart from the others they played against. Let's call it "basketball genius." If they have it, they have it. How come Bird was so dominant in his era? he wasn't the fastest, or the most athletic? What did he have? Was it the same thing Jordan had? Dr. J? Wilt Chamberlain?
Bill Russell? Why were they so different from George Mikan or members of the Harlem Globetrotters?

yes, all the great ones had something to them. they were "basketball geniuses" compared to their peers, but here's the thing -- just because a guy was a "basketball genius" and figured out how to do things in his era, he might had needed a bit more to figure out things if he played in a different era because the game is always progressing to a more advanced and complex level. and talent is always changing as well. did mikan have talent? of course he did for his era. but his game didn't require as much talent to dominate in his time as it does for modern times. he just didn't have to absorb as much because the game was less complex and the competition was not as intense. if you take a kid and show him mikan's game and then hakeem's game, that kid would find it a lot easier to learn the former than the latter. even high school kids today got better looking post game and rebounding techniques than mikan. but how come there aren't high school kids looking like hakeem yet?? because hakeem's game was on a whole different level, man, and to get that level, you need some major talent well above what mikan ever demonstrated. i just don't buy that talent is talent. some talent are just better than others.


Quote:
You talk as if these guys played ball 2000 years ago. The best players from any era, and I mean from right now all the way back, have more than just self confidence and work ethic, they are the best of the best, they are above and beyond NBDL players for a reason. What is the reason? Can you tell me?

i told you self-confidence and work ethic are not enough for success. you can believe in yourself and give in the most effort and still not succeed if you don't got it.


Quote:
I am talking about players who did have an opportunity to play in the NBA and whose stats are recorded, I am questioning your irrational attachment to the so-called "modern era." I am trying to find out when you consider NBA basketball players to no longer have any relevance or value, what if you came right out and said when it is that you think these NBA players should dissapear from our collective view?

the term "modern era" is just used to distinguish different periods of basketball because, again, the game's always changing. but if you're here to suggest that the competition between mikan's era and today have not changed and that you can't even distinguish between these noticeably different periods, then i don't know what to tell you because there's too much to cover.
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:34 PM   #79
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Glove you think GP is top 20 player of all time?
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:53 PM   #80
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

How can anyone on here say that the players from the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's are better than the players of the 80's, 90's and now...basketball has changed so much and as it has changed it's also improved its talent level...I'm not saying that the older players are garbage, it's just that the competition that they played against was far inferior to that of the 80's to today...let's put it this way if Bob Cousy (played from the 50's to the 70's) played against the likes of Allen Iverson, Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas...he would get murdered...it would be tough for him to even play in the league as a starter because of his style of play...he had that weird completely fundamental dribble and in today's NBA he would get stripped 75% of the time down the floor...need more examples?
Also in today's NBA we have 6-8 point guards and 350lb centers...a center in the 50's on average was about 6-9 and weighed 240...there are point guards almost that tall and shooting guards that weigh that much now! How could those players compete today...they simply COULD NOT!

Last edited by maracle10 : 07-07-2007 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:09 PM   #81
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

when we discuss greatest of all time...thats exactly what I'm discussing...I'm not discussing it based on who has more accomplishments or rings or whatever...I'm discussing it on who the greatest of all time are as far as talent level...isnt how much talent level you have what determines if you are good or not? not whether they dominated in their era...for example Rashard Lewis is an above average player that doesnt exactly dominate in the NBA but can hold his own against anyone today, if you were to put him in the days of Russell and Chamberlain, there would be no Russell and Chamberlain talks it would all be about Lewis...I mean a 6-9 player that can bomb 3's! Back then it would have been considered the second coming of Jesus! And lets not even mention if Dirk Nowitzki played back then OMG!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:37 PM   #82
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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Glove you think GP is top 20 player of all time?
Haven't really took the time to think about it, but he is Top 25
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Old 07-08-2007, 01:29 AM   #83
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Default trotter love

gotta give some love for the globetrotters. before the nba let any african americans in the league, the trotters were the team

more popular than the nba teams, these trotter teams had some of the best players in guys like marques haynes and goose tatum

why do you all think that wilt played for the trotters first?

i think that it would be hard to overrate the importance of the globetrotters
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:23 AM   #84
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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for example Rashard Lewis is an above average player that doesnt exactly dominate in the NBA but can hold his own against anyone today, if you were to put him in the days of Russell and Chamberlain, there would be no Russell and Chamberlain talks it would all be about Lewis...I mean a 6-9 player that can bomb 3's! Back then it would have been considered the second coming of Jesus! And lets not even mention if Dirk Nowitzki played back then OMG!!!!!!!!!

The 60's had already Baylor and Pettit who knew more and better basketball than Lewis knows now. Pettit and Schayes were equally good as shooters (so, there would be no "second comings" of Jesus), but it still wouldn't matter as much, because there were no 3's anyway. Wilt and Russell would still be comfortably better.
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Old 07-08-2007, 04:41 PM   #85
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by maracle10
How can anyone on here say that the players from the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's are better than the players of the 80's, 90's and now...basketball has changed so much and as it has changed it's also improved its talent level...I'm not saying that the older players are garbage, it's just that the competition that they played against was far inferior to that of the 80's to today...let's put it this way if Bob Cousy (played from the 50's to the 70's) played against the likes of Allen Iverson, Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas...he would get murdered...it would be tough for him to even play in the league as a starter because of his style of play...he had that weird completely fundamental dribble and in today's NBA he would get stripped 75% of the time down the floor...need more examples?
Also in today's NBA we have 6-8 point guards and 350lb centers...a center in the 50's on average was about 6-9 and weighed 240...there are point guards almost that tall and shooting guards that weigh that much now! How could those players compete today...they simply COULD NOT!

Exactly how many 350 lb centers are in the NBA right now? Isn't Ben Wallace a center? isn't he listed at 6'9"? Doesn't he weigh 240? I think you are really stretching the facts a bit to serve your argument. Point guards are bigger now, but to say that "we have 6'8" point guards" is a bit misleading.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:31 PM   #86
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Default Re: trotter love

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
gotta give some love for the globetrotters. before the nba let any african americans in the league, the trotters were the team

more popular than the nba teams, these trotter teams had some of the best players in guys like marques haynes and goose tatum

why do you all think that wilt played for the trotters first?

i think that it would be hard to overrate the importance of the globetrotters

Ranier, did you know that the Trotters once played in an empty swimming pool because it was the only paved surface in the town they were in?

And one thing about the ISh greatest players thread. Why does there have to be players to be considered? Has there been a player selected that wasn't suggested? It seems like steering the vote in a way. Just open it up and let the votes flow. Didn't want in mess with the threads because they are going good. But it just kinda stood out to me, so I threw it in here.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:58 PM   #87
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Default familiar players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Mav
Ranier, did you know that the Trotters once played in an empty swimming pool because it was the only paved surface in the town they were in?

And one thing about the ISh greatest players thread. Why does there have to be players to be considered? Has there been a player selected that wasn't suggested? It seems like steering the vote in a way. Just open it up and let the votes flow. Didn't want in mess with the threads because they are going good. But it just kinda stood out to me, so I threw it in here.

haha-- great trivia regarding the swimming pool court. do you remember what town it was in s-mav?

with regard to steering votes, it seems we usually favor players that we have seen play. it is harder to comment on those in earlier eras because we have to do more homework
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:20 PM   #88
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Default Re: familiar players

I have no idea on the town. But I think it was in Montana.
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:30 PM   #89
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

I have heard some interesting points of view on this topic, and even though I still believe what I believe about players from previous eras, I am seeing the value in these other opinions. maybe another way of looking at it is that each great player of their era put up records to be broken by the players who followed them, or built some kind of foundation with their abilities for younger players to learn from. I just don't want to see them forgotten or disregarded, because they paved the way for today's players.
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