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Old 07-06-2007, 11:50 PM   #31
Silent Mav
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

I agree with dejourdan on that point. Everyone has different criteria at which they measure things. So if a list has basically the same people, with some displacement due to personal opinions, it can't be that bad a list.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:55 PM   #32
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Not really...


1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. O'Neal
8. Hakeem
9. Big O
10. Duncan
11. West
12. Moses
13. Erving
14. Havlicek
15. Malone

Baylor
Pettit



is what it should've been. And the ones bolded are the ones who were too low on ISH's list. Underlined too high on ISH's list.

These so-called mistakes that you're claiming are picks that differ normally by 1 or 2 spots that even you would have to concede are close. I don't get why you always have to call attention to bull****.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:58 PM   #33
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
he's right. quite a bit are getting overrated.

a guy like mikan is overrated. come on now. only your great-grandfather, if he were still alive, would jock that sh!t. mikan had the ugliest moves that would get rejected to pakistan if he tried them in the nba today. and he was slow as hell and moved like a stone.

from an accomplishment standpoint, of course, mikan dominated in his era. but that's it -- he dominated in his era. basketball was still so undeveloped. they were still learning how to start a fire or wondering how to use a wheel in the sport, so to speak. you can call him a great pioneer, but you don't wonder anymore than that.

from a skill and athletic standpoint, that fool would probably get busted by some of today's high school kids.

This is nonsense. Talent is talent. The best always rise to the top. it doesn't matter what color they are or when they played. people use this argument to knock Wilt Chamberlain, too. "He was playing with a bunch of midgets-it was easy for him to dominate." Do you know how rare and unusual it is to find someone 6'10"-7'-0" with speed,skill and basketball IQ? The best always find a way to be the best, by working hard and having a gift. Smarten up.
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Old 07-07-2007, 12:27 AM   #34
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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Originally Posted by haji_d_robertas
This is nonsense. Talent is talent. The best always rise to the top. it doesn't matter what color they are or when they played. people use this argument to knock Wilt Chamberlain, too. "He was playing with a bunch of midgets-it was easy for him to dominate." Do you know how rare and unusual it is to find someone 6'10"-7'-0" with speed,skill and basketball IQ? The best always find a way to be the best, by working hard and having a gift. Smarten up.

this is where you don't get it or refuse to get it. george mikan only had talent for his era. that's it. the key words are "for his era." we all have video footages. so what speed of mikan are you talking about, man? maybe quick for all big stiffs in his era, but fast forward to today's game, he's pretty slow, even by competitve high school standards. you seriously in your heart believe he can hang with the amare stoudemires of today???? mikan's post game was also experimental and left a lot to be desired. it was just good for that era because everyone were still trying to figure things out. that's it. i can excuse him for that because he never grew up watching basketball on tv nor had a vcr to slow-mo and rewind mchale's moves at the post, and he probably never had anyone to teach him how to do it. okay, he was a pioneer, and you can say he was a great among his peers, but nobody ever wonders how he'd do today with that same set of abilities. he dominated in his era. no one is denying that fact. but that sentence wouldn't make sense without those last three words: in his era. you're talking about '40s basketball here. there's no comparison to modern version with all its medical advances, sports technology, understanding and knowledge acquired through years of "trial and failure" experience. there's over 60 year advantage of development. think about it and how the sport has evolved. don't be a stubborn old fart who gets offended at the suggestion that mikan wouldn't do sh!t against a kevin garnett or hakeem olajuwon or whoever from more modern times.

Last edited by DCL : 07-07-2007 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:31 AM   #35
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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Originally Posted by TheHonestTruth
Payton is overrated. Nash is better.
Exactly.


How can anybody run an offense properly with that much gum in his mouth? The answer is, it's not possible, and that's why Payton was never anything but a short two-guard.
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Old 07-07-2007, 03:16 AM   #36
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

i watched a few old games recently and i just don't feel olden days bball can compare to what we see today... it's much better now... people used to just fire up crazy shots... crazy hooks... get no-calls or get a 24-sec shotclock violation when you released the ball with 2 secs on the shot-clock... sucks... modern bball...

no offence to olden days players though... they were the ones who set the path for us though...
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Old 07-07-2007, 03:33 AM   #37
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
this is where you don't get it or refuse to get it. george mikan only had talent for his era. that's it. the key words are "for his era." we all have video footages. so what speed of mikan are you talking about, man? maybe quick for all big stiffs in his era, but fast forward to today's game, he's pretty slow, even by competitve high school standards. you seriously in your heart believe he can hang with the amare stoudemires of today???? mikan's post game was also experimental and left a lot to be desired. it was just good for that era because everyone were still trying to figure things out. that's it. i can excuse him for that because he never grew up watching basketball on tv nor had a vcr to slow-mo and rewind mchale's moves at the post, and he probably never had anyone to teach him how to do it. okay, he was a pioneer, and you can say he was a great among his peers, but nobody ever wonders how he'd do today with that same set of abilities. he dominated in his era. no one is denying that fact. but that sentence wouldn't make sense without those last three words: in his era. you're talking about '40s basketball here. there's no comparison to modern version with all its medical advances, sports technology, understanding and knowledge acquired through years of "trial and failure" experience. there's over 60 year advantage of development. think about it and how the sport has evolved. don't be a stubborn old fart who gets offended at the suggestion that mikan wouldn't do sh!t against a kevin garnett or hakeem olajuwon or whoever from more modern times.
like I said. Talent is talent. I'm not talking about any era. I'm talking about ability. What you are failing to understand is that people with ability adapt. Larry Bird was not the fastest or most athletic player of his era, so how come he was so great? Medical advances? Sports Technology? No. He had exceptional drive and motivation to be the best that he could be, how can you say for sure that George Mikan didn't have the same drive and motivation as Kevin Garnett or Hakeem Olajuwon? Easy. You can't. Because you don't know. I'm saying that exceptional people can rise to any occasion, anytime. You are being narrow minded and stubborn if you think that players from the past didn't work as hard or had a less informed understanding of the game just because they played in the 40's or the 50's. Who do you think players of today built their games on? Who was out there for 60 years trying and failing and developing the game we know today? The players. The same players you say wouldn't do sh!t against the players of today. I'm just saying that you should think about how gifted these people were, and how hard they worked, and how little they got paid, and not to dismiss them outright for being where they were at their time in history.
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Old 07-07-2007, 07:18 AM   #38
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

That's what I'm always saying, basically. The longer the time a certain player played is gone, the more he gets overrated on ISH. Makes the poster seem more "old school" somehow, I guess.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:05 AM   #39
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

I actually agree. Players from the past do get overrated. Had ray Allen played in the 60s he would be mentioned in G.O.A.T conversations.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Really depends on how you want to rank players, if we are talking in absolute terms (as in everyone steps into a time machine and walk on court today exactly as they were) then yes past players are absolutely getting overrated.

If we are talking about greatness in their era then no, past players aren't getting overrated and some are even forgotten.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:15 AM   #41
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

players from the older days are overrated just like older cars.

Which they are not.

Most players of today could not play in those days. HOFérs were up and down just about every teams roster.

At least 5 players ony team in the NBA should not even be in the L today.

But back to the analogy, old school cars are better than todays. We know that is fact. They are worth more when they are restored to specs.

New cars can't compete with the old ones.

This is way off topic. I'm sorry.

Why do cars have airbags??? Because the cars are too flimsy to hold up to an accident. I have a fully resored '57 chevy in my garage and it's built like a tank.

Basically I'm saying players back then were mor durable, didn't sit out whole seasons like players do now. They could take a hit.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:17 AM   #42
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey3000
I actually agree. Players from the past do get overrated. Had ray Allen played in the 60s he would be mentioned in G.O.A.T conversations.
had ray allen played in the 60s he would be shooting the set shot and dribbling with one hand just like everybody else. ray allen's game is built on the back of the players who developed the skills of the nba in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. cut out that development, and he's just a 6' 5" (actually might only be 6' 3" since they measured without shows back then) athletic guy who would be even skinnier without modern nutrition and weight training. he's got the athleticism and coordination to become great, but he wouldn't be the ray allen we all know today.
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Old 07-07-2007, 10:01 AM   #43
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
had ray allen played in the 60s he would be shooting the set shot and dribbling with one hand just like everybody else. ray allen's game is built on the back of the players who developed the skills of the nba in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. cut out that development, and he's just a 6' 5" (actually might only be 6' 3" since they measured without shows back then) athletic guy who would be even skinnier without modern nutrition and weight training. he's got the athleticism and coordination to become great, but he wouldn't be the ray allen we all know today.

If Tyson Chandler was alive in the 50s playing bball in the nba with Mikan he would be top 50 all time.....tell me im wrong...even without weight he is still 6"11, fast and has a crazy vert....
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Old 07-07-2007, 10:16 AM   #44
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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from an accomplishment standpoint, of course, mikan dominated in his era. but that's it -- he dominated in his era. basketball was still so undeveloped. they were still learning how to start a fire or wondering how to use a wheel in the sport, so to speak. you can call him a great pioneer, but you don't wonder anymore than that.

And because of his domination, Mikan is considered and will remain forever a legend. He's not overrated because he's not seriously considered among the very greatest in today's lists. As for the usual "if Mikan played today he'd be a scrub" arguments, they have no bearing if we don't consider the overall changes that he'd be subject to due to this era. It's like saying "If Alexander Graham Bell lived today, he'd be good only for making toys for kids, because the phones he invented suck!".

And, BTW, basketball was not THAT undeveloped. The NBA, yes, but basketball in general? I'd say it had covered half the way compared to now. It was already 60 years old. New rules had already been implemented or older ones changed. The Globetrotters already existed. There had already been leagues older than the new NBA and of course, the level of basketball they played was even lower. The Original Celtics were a basketball legend in the 1920's. Players like John Beckman, Joe Lapchick and Nat Holman were considered legends. Beckman was called "the Babe Ruth of basketball", and we're talking about the '20s. Just imagine what Mikan would be called if he was transported to that era, if you think Mikan's own era couldn't be more primitive.

Quote:
had ray allen played in the 60s he would be shooting the set shot and dribbling with one hand just like everybody else. ray allen's game is built on the back of the players who developed the skills of the nba in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. cut out that development, and he's just a 6' 5" (actually might only be 6' 3" since they measured without shows back then) athletic guy who would be even skinnier without modern nutrition and weight training. he's got the athleticism and coordination to become great, but he wouldn't be the ray allen we all know today.

Exactly. Who is to guarantee that Ray Allen with the technology of the 60's would be a bigger name than he's today? He'd probably be in the Hal Greer level. A good shooter and scorer, parennial all-star or all-star candidate, but not anywhere close to GOAT material.
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Old 07-07-2007, 10:22 AM   #45
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Default Re: Players from the Past are getting overrated

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If Tyson Chandler was alive in the 50s playing bball in the nba with Mikan he would be top 50 all time.....tell me im wrong...even without weight he is still 6"11, fast and has a crazy vert....

And yet, his athletic abilities, which are pretty impressive even with today's standards (and would be poorer if he lived back then) are not enough to give him more than one 20-point game a year. You need talent and a certain mentality apart from athleticism and Chandler, as an offensive player doesn't seem to own them. He'd still be a defensive and rebounding force, but you know that that is usually not enough to qualify you as a top-50 GOAT.
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