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Old 06-19-2007, 12:22 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Absolutly. Jordan is the goat. You can also make the case for other players but overall, I consider Jordan the undisputed goat.
Other candidates - Wilt, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Russell.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyscraper
i mean when zone defenses were illegal during the best time of his career (excluding his final season with the Wizards) he flourished. but if defenses and coaching were allowed to diagram complex zones and traps to use against him... would he really have been able to defeat it and still be the GOAT with the highest PPG average and his numerous accolades?

yeah he averaged 22 at age 39, so let's assume a 29 year old Jordan couldn't boost that 22 ppg by a full 8-12 points or so
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
I don't think it's even close when it comes to GOAT debates. People that put a case for Wilt only do so because of his stats, but the fallacy in the thinking is that, Wilt's stats were so ridiculous you can only come to two conclusions-- either A: they were heavily skewed or B: they were legit and Wilt would put up these numbers today... which would basically make him GOD. So you either believe Wilt is GOD, or you take the realistic apporach and realize his numbers don't mean jack beacuse they're skewed and he wouldn't come close to averaging 25 boards in today's game. So once you take Wilt's numebrs away, his failure to win and him being outplayed in the playoffs so many times automatically DISQUALIFIES him from any GOAt conversation.

.

You can't take Wilt's numbers away, they were legit, he's gotta be at least in the consideration.
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Old 06-19-2007, 02:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

It's completely arguable, and it's between 5-6 guys. 3 of them are the Dream Team's big three: Jordan, you know, I don't really need to elaborate. Magic was the greatest floor general I've ever seen and the guy who could play at a good level in more positions than anyone. Has more playoff triple doubles than the next 3 guys combined. Won 5 titles during what many people call the Golden era of the NBA. Larry Bird has probably the weakest case for GOAT, but he also had the worst bodyof them all. It's scary of what he might achieve if he had even 80% of Jordan's or Dominique's athleticism. But ifs are not strong enough to win a case.

And then, there is the Holy Trinity of Centers: Russell, who would own the most accolades ever, had all of today's trophies existed back then (a more plausible "if", compared to Larry Bird's one) and, as the level of competition increased, he stepped up even more. There's Kareem, with his mythical endurance (banging with Wilt in the early 70's and outplaying-at times-guys like Hakeem and Ewing in the mid 80's). Arguably the most consistant player ever. And there's Wilt, with the Chuck Norris-like stats, who was accused of not playing well in the playoffs, but still needed to reach almost 36 till we see someone outplay him in a series (Kareem, at his absolute physical prime, in 1972, although in the Final Game 6, Wilt tired him a great deal and forced him into bad shooting).

For me, Wilt is the GOAT. Jordan might have been a better Finals' performer, but I'm looking at the wider picture. Some don't and just wait for the Finals. Personal views, but too simplified for my tastes.
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Old 06-19-2007, 02:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Magic is the GOAT in my book. Mike may have been the more dominant individual player. But Magic is a great individual player in his own right and I think is more important to a team
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:11 PM   #21
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

I find that the majority of people that I've encountered that don't believe Jordan is GOAT are:

Laker fans
Jordan haaters (or at least, people who don't care for him that much).

(much of the time they're the same thing)

I just find that to be interesting.

There have been many great players in the NBA, but I have yet to see the COMBINATION of:

Scoring
Defense
Overall bball IQ
Clutch play
Championships
Individual accoldaes/accomplishments

in any other player. Not to mention he broke the mold of the "need a dominant low post player" to win.

Last edited by Knoe Itawl : 06-19-2007 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:34 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
I find that the majority of people that I've encountered that don't believe Jordan is GOAT are:

Laker fans
Jordan haaters (or at least, people who don't care for him that much).

Actually, many of them are also Celtics' fans. I'm not talking about young fans, because the Celtics horrendous years post-Bird don't encourage a typical youngster to become a Celtic fan, but among the ones who watched Bird play, you'll see quite a few GOAT claims. More than for Magic Johnson, I dare say, probably because Magic's prime was closer chronologically to Jordan's, so he had to share the spotlight more than Bird.

These guys don't post in forums much, but Bird has more webpages dedicated to him than probably any Laker not named Kobe and more GOAT claims than any original Laker (Wilt and Kareem weren't "original" Lakers).
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:45 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
You can't take Wilt's numbers away, they were legit, he's gotta be at least in the consideration.

You are absolutely right.... Wilt's numbers cant be taken from him anymore than Jordan's can..

the real reason why most put Jordan over Wilt when it comes to G.O.A.T is because of 2 factors:

* Jordan led his team to 6 titles & Wilt led his to 2
* Jordan was a guard and no other guard had the offensive prowess that made him as valuable as a big man (cept maybe Magic)
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:57 PM   #24
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
there are a combination of things that makse Jordan GOAT

it's a combination of:

1: rings (6 as the undisputed #1 man, more so than anyone except for Russell)

2: dominance over his peers (there was rarely any doubt who the best player was, it was always Jordan at the top. We may have taken that for granted in the 90s, but now look how hard it is for one guy to stay on top. Every year we have a new "best player in the game" it seems. Sure Duncan has been the best, but Kobe, Lebron, KG, or even Wade all has had a strong case for the top spot, no one has a lock on the spot the way Jordan did)

3: stepping up when it matters (as great as magic, wilt, shaq was, all these cats have been outplayed, embarassed, or outperformed in a playoff series by an opponent. I can't think of one series where Jordan was outplayed by one guy. Even in the early years when the Bulls lost to the Pistons, there was never ANY DOUBT who the best player was. I also can't remember one "horrible playoff series" by Jordan, at least statistically... anyone can dig up any Jordan playoff serise average that's far below his norm? I dont think so. But you can definitely find these for Shaq, Kobe, Duncan,whoever)

4: mastered more than one area of the game (offensively, he was the best, but he was also one of the best defenders. early on his J was shaky and he was a penetrating machine, later on his career he had the deadliest midrange J and post up game in the league. What other player has completely changed up their game over the years and mastered both areas so skillfully?)

5: consistency (once Jordan got to the top, he stayed there and no one could knock him off. unlike everyone else, who would win a ring one year and then go out in the first round the next (ahem, Magic) or get completely outplayed/destroyed the next year in a early round.

I don't think it's even close when it comes to GOAT debates. People that put a case for Wilt only do so because of his stats, but the fallacy in the thinking is that, Wilt's stats were so ridiculous you can only come to two conclusions-- either A: they were heavily skewed or B: they were legit and Wilt would put up these numbers today... which would basically make him GOD. So you either believe Wilt is GOD, or you take the realistic apporach and realize his numbers don't mean jack beacuse they're skewed and he wouldn't come close to averaging 25 boards in today's game. So once you take Wilt's numebrs away, his failure to win and him being outplayed in the playoffs so many times automatically DISQUALIFIES him from any GOAt conversation.

Kareem and Magic GOAT? How do they lose in the first round in 83 together, or get swept/embarassed by the Pistons in 89? If you have two arguably GOAT guys together, they actually probably shoulda won more and been more consistent, right?

Bill Russell is the only one who can really make a serious case against Jordan for GOAT. He won more, and he always got the upper hand in the playoffs like Jordan did, which is somethign just about 99% of other superstars can't claim.

1)since when Shaq was outplayed/embarassed/outperformed by an opponent?(if u are talking about Hakeemīs finals , watch the games again -Shaq was doubled all the time and The Dream not - and check the statistics again - they have pretty close numbers , then free ur mind from classics stereotypes like the The Dream x Shaq duel)

2)wasnt KAJ 75 years old( averaging 10/5 lol) in 89? they should won more rings if they were on the same stage of their careers, and Magic retired at 31 yrs old...5 rings and 9 finals (LOL)in 12 years..isnt that consintent?
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:03 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

But it is true though, you can't compare a center and a shooting guard....I think Jordan is top 2........u gotta look at all the aspects of it....
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:29 PM   #26
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyscraper
would he really have been able to defeat it and still be the GOAT with the highest PPG average and his numerous accolades?
yes...


and those of you saying Bill Russell should be shot...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
yes...


and those of you saying Bill Russell should be shot...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird


You need to be shot with some brain cells, Russell was da man!
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
yes...


and those of you saying Bill Russell should be shot...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird

You keepin Russell outta that list is against my 10 commandments
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:49 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
yes...

and those of you saying Bill Russell should be shot...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird

Υοu know, Magic did not lead many of his teams in scoring, either...
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:49 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is Jordan really the GOAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoe Itawl
Not to mention he broke the mold of the "need a dominant low post player" to win.

Not really. He's more of the exception to the rule, more than anything.
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