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Old 06-19-2007, 12:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik
Do you not factor in HOW a player plays with his teammates?
As in how good a teamplayer that player is?

If you're going to judge and rank players based on individual accomplishments, T-MAC, AI, KOBE(post-Shaq era) will all be up there because their offensive skills are unmatched. However can they win?

Steve Nash comes to mind.. he is the season MVP not because of his personal skills, but how he uses his personal skills to help the team win.

Accomplishments of playoffs, championships are considered because of what I said above. Can a player win with his team.. can he lead his team? that is the question. That should be how you rank players as well.

Weird how you know to throw accomplishments in to rank players, however you throw teamplay out of the equation

If Hakeem really was a McGrady or Iverson type player who had no championships then you would have a point and Duncan would be greater. However, Hakeem, Like Nash who you mentioned, and Duncan, has won MVP and does know how to win.

Don't put Hakeem next to McGrady and AI again please. You make yourself sound bad. Hakeem is a winner. Hakeem is one of the 8 in NBA history to win multiple Final MVPs. Hakeem can lead a team and win, which was what your whole point was about.


And Hakeem is the better individual player against Duncan. And once again, team accomplisments aren't all one player. Though your individual abilites/skills is all you. Therefore, those individual skills count higher than the team accomplisments. Hakeem is over Duncan as for now. And once again, don't forget the logevity edge Hakeem has as well. Duncan's career isn't over and Hakeem has played well longer.
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Old 06-19-2007, 01:01 PM   #32
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

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Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
You act like Duncan is any better than Shaq and Hakeem in terms of teamplay. Shaq got to the finals with THREE different teams. Hakeem got to the finals almost a decade apart. Both sustained their level of play for a long time and proved that they can lead completely different teams to the finals.
Shaq wasn't in my argument at all, I had no problem with his rankings.
Hakeem has done some winning, no doubt about that. But uncomparable to Duncan.
Duncan single handedly brought his team into the Elite list of teams that have won more than 4 championships each: Lakers, Celtic, Bulls, Spurs.

Post 1990:
Jordan won 6 in a 8 years range..
Shaq won 4 in.. what was is, 5 or 6
Duncan won 4 in.. 8

this here is an elite list.. only previous legends have resumes like this..
Hakeem's 2 just isn't enough for me..
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Old 06-19-2007, 01:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

1. shaq never played against any good teams with bigmen. his title runs consisted of him dunking on a) greg ostertag b) vlade divac c) todd mccullough d) oldass dikembe

2. hakeem is just a fancier KG, imo. doesnt make his teammates better, hence why he only won 2 chips when a) they didnt have to play jordan and b )they didnt have to play the sonics

3. duncan has been through everyone. shaq/kobe lakers. melo/ai nuggets. prime suns teams. the great pistons.

duncan > the world.
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Old 06-19-2007, 01:57 PM   #34
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

I agree with Duncan being 3rd out of those 3 but i keep finding myself flip flopping between Shaq and Hakeem at 1 and 2. As you have said, Shaq is one of the most dominant offensive bigmen ever but Hakeem was also great on that end too. Hakeem coordination, footwork, post moves, and mid range jumper made him almost impossible to handle. We all know about Hakeem's defensive greatness and all the stats behind him but people tend to underrate Shaq defensive abilities. When he was younger he was an exlosive leaper and with his size/athleticism he was a great help defender that blocked/changed many shots. Shaq does have the winning and ring advantage which has a large part to do with how someboby's greatness is looked upon. On an individual scale i think i would have to go with Hakeem but if we are comparing the "greatness" then i think Shaq gets the edge.
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Old 06-19-2007, 02:16 PM   #35
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzle-2k7
1. shaq never played against any good teams with bigmen. his title runs consisted of him dunking on a) greg ostertag b) vlade divac c) todd mccullough d) oldass dikembe

2. hakeem is just a fancier KG, imo. doesnt make his teammates better, hence why he only won 2 chips when a) they didnt have to play jordan and b )they didnt have to play the sonics

3. duncan has been through everyone. shaq/kobe lakers. melo/ai nuggets. prime suns teams. the great pistons.

duncan > the world.

Prime Suns Team? barbosa,Diaw,amare, and mot of the team is not in their prime. The suns are very good but their core for the future is all 24 year olds. With an Up and Coming Dominant big man In Stoudemire. Stoudemire is like a young Shaq going against Hakeem(Duncan) eventually the torch will go to amare.

Dont overrate the competition duncan is facing, I think its identitical,Hakeem had to face more skilled big guys, Kemp, a young freak Shaq, and DROB.

Personally Shaq is above them all.
I think Duncan has surpassed Hakeem.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:05 PM   #36
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Dizzle: Hakeem did not make his teammates better? Do you have any clue? Do you remember the two title runs? You know what they did?

They pounded the ball in to Hakeem and he ran the offense. There was no PG to run the show. They had Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell on their first title team. 3 scoring point guards. They had to complete the guard rotation, he together with Robert Horry manned the SF spot who then again shared the PF rotation with Carl Herrera and Otis Thorpe. So who again ran that team? They had shooting PG's, a shooter at SG and SF and garbage scorers at the PF spot. Cassell was a rook. Horry was in his sophomore season. Maxwell was a ticking timebomb and a volume shooter. Kenny Smith wasnt the most accomplished of all. Everything was ran by Hakeem. He made that team. He generated almost all shots in their halfcourt offense.

Still, I fail to see any way how you could reasonably say that any one of those three guys is any better than the other. But saying that Hakeem did not make his teammates better? Thats utter bull****. Oh, and then something else. Look at his teams after the 86 finals run and especially from 89-92. And then wonder no more why he didn't make it far in the playoffs.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:45 PM   #37
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Shaq is better then both by a good margin in my eyes....

Hakeem only has 2 ships because of Jordan... How many would Duncan have if he played in the 90's
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Still, I fail to see any way how you could reasonably say that any one of those three guys is any better than the other.

was Duncan in his prime as good as Shaq and Hakeem in their respective primes? That's the most reasonable argument to put Duncan a level below those two. Duncan is mighty consistent, and does things very few in this current league do, but both Hakeem and Shaq did so as well PLUS they were far better scorers, and Hakeem a way better defender. They also had to go against better competition.

Had Duncan had a couple of seasons of 27/13 on good shooting he might have an argument. But as it stands, he simply never reached the dominance of Hakeem and Shaq.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:50 PM   #39
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
but both Hakeem and Shaq did so as well PLUS they were far better scorers

Hakeem a far better scorer than Duncan? Is that so?

Take a look at this stat. It's their top five highest-shots-per-game season for both Duncan & Dream.

Dreams:

21.5
21.2
20.8
19.6
19

Duncans:

17.5
17.3
17.1
17.1
17.1

As you can see, in Hakeems lowest out of the five he's STILL taking 1.5 more shots per game than Duncan' highest. That tells me why Hakeem had a higher PPG; he took more shots! Not because he was a FAR better scorer as you suggest.

Quote:
Hakeem only has 2 ships because of Jordan... How many would Duncan have if he played in the 90's

This is probably the biggest myth in all of basketball. Did his Rockets ever face the Bulls in the finals? Nope. Therefor they were NEVER eliminated by the Bulls in the playoffs, making Jordan a non-factor in why Hakeem "only" has two rings.

Chicago & Houston were in different conferences meaning they could only play in the finals, which they did not. Get my drift? It wasn't Jordan ousting Hakeem from the playoffs.

FFS people can't you do some damn research instead of reiterating what someone else has said (and they were wrong in the first place) and act like you're in the know.

Last edited by Carbine : 06-19-2007 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by DěN
Are you drunk early in the morning?

Hakeem does have more skill/talent than Duncan. He is better on offense and defense. Are you going to deny that? Hakeem was a better player individually. And scoring champions > MVPs? Where does that come in? Since when are scoring champions more skilled/talented than MVPs? Make sense when you post next time.
I must say i'm impressed. Not only did DON make a few posts in this thread (including this quoted one) without mentioning his own name in 3rd person, but DON also threw down some good basketball knowledge rather then talking about people's intelligence levels. Good job.
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzle-2k7
1. shaq never played against any good teams with bigmen. his title runs consisted of him dunking on a) greg ostertag b) vlade divac c) todd mccullough d) oldass dikembe

2. hakeem is just a fancier KG, imo. doesnt make his teammates better, hence why he only won 2 chips when a) they didnt have to play jordan and b )they didnt have to play the sonics

3. duncan has been through everyone. shaq/kobe lakers. melo/ai nuggets. prime suns teams. the great pistons.

duncan > the world.

Wait, huh?

Are your lips that stuck to Duncan's balls that you are unable to at least give a bit of props to Hakeem? I mean it's okay that Spurs are your team, and it's okay that you think Tim is better than Hakeem, but to say, "fancier KG" is an insult not only to Hakeem himself, but to the basketball community as a whole.
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:08 PM   #42
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

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Originally Posted by DěN
DON should've put this on his original post, but please leave out the idiotic comments
why put that under my post? it was obviously the least idiotic in the entire thread considering i stated the obvious facts
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:13 PM   #43
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzle-2k7
1. shaq never played against any good teams with bigmen. his title runs consisted of him dunking on a) greg ostertag b) vlade divac c) todd mccullough d) oldass dikembe

2. hakeem is just a fancier KG, imo. doesnt make his teammates better, hence why he only won 2 chips when a) they didnt have to play jordan and b )they didnt have to play the sonics

3. duncan has been through everyone. shaq/kobe lakers. melo/ai nuggets. prime suns teams. the great pistons.

duncan > the world.

How can you say that Duncan > world, and then in the next breath state that Shaq never played against any good big men during his prime run when he went through Duncan twice?
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:17 PM   #44
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
How can you say that Duncan > world, and then in the next breath state that Shaq never played against any good big men during his prime run when he went through Duncan twice?



I didnt even catch that because i tend to just skip over his posts and not read.
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Old 06-20-2007, 11:32 AM   #45
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Hakeem a far better scorer than Duncan? Is that so?

Take a look at this stat. It's their top five highest-shots-per-game season for both Duncan & Dream.

Dreams:

21.5
21.2
20.8
19.6
19

Duncans:

17.5
17.3
17.1
17.1
17.1

As you can see, in Hakeems lowest out of the five he's STILL taking 1.5 more shots per game than Duncan' highest. That tells me why Hakeem had a higher PPG; he took more shots! Not because he was a FAR better scorer as you suggest.

Duncan took 18.3 shots the season he scored 25.5 ppg on 51% FG, 80% FT --> 57.6 TS%
Hakeem scored 26 ppg on 57.7 TS%, 28 on 56.3 TS%

Hakeem was just as effective as Duncan when it came to scoring, PLUS he scored more.

Scoring more and scoring just as efficient = better scorer.
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