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Old 06-19-2007, 10:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik
how the F do u rank Hakeem over Duncan?
Yea he was good, but only 2 championships.
Duncan was able to get 4 over a what, 8 years time?
Just because hakeem is GOOD, u rank him over duncan, throwing out all the accomplishments

Take a look at the Spurs champonship roster and the Rockets champinship roster. The Rockets roster pales in comparision to the Spurs teams. When Houston played in the Finals in the 80s, they lost to a great Celtics team but also beat a very good Lakers team to get there. All this with a Young Dream. Hakeem also lead them to a 2nd title as a #6 Seed, which has never been done. If we are talking about which of these guys are individually better, I'll go with Hakeem hands down. His defense was tremendous and his offense was out of this world. The footwork of Hakeem can't be matched. He was shaking and crossing guys like a point guard.
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Old 06-19-2007, 11:52 AM   #17
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Olajuwon and Shaq are both pretty much done. Duncan however, may have another championship(or two?) left in him.

If Duncan gets another one in a year or two, it would be hard to not put him above either one of those other two guys.
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Old 06-19-2007, 11:59 AM   #18
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

There is so much more to rating a player than three categories, a lot of people fail to come to that conclusion. It's not that I totally disagree with what you said but...

You rated them based on

Defense
Offense
Winning

That shows you're either tryng to create some buzz or you're more along the lines of a Konex instead of a KBlaze. You know?

I'll leave it at that and be done with it.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
its definately close between the three, infact all three are ranked the 7th, 8th, and 9th greatest ever

in terms of the three players the ranking is this:
1. hakeem olajuwon
2. tim duncan
3. shaquille o'neal
...
Quote:
DON should've put this on his original post, but please leave out the idiotic comments.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

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Originally Posted by Aussie Dunker
i see what your saying ^ but putting hakeem and shaq over duncan isnt exactly putting duncan down...

Id say :
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

not much difference at all between shaq and duncan, but id still say hakeem is clearly the best here... (personal opinion)
Lets keep it there.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:05 PM   #21
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by WADE MONEY
You KNOW that's not what he meant. We all know Duncan won 3 finals MVP's and arguably deserved a fourth. What he's saying is Hakeem is simply more skilled than Duncan offensively and defensively. Dude makes plays that leave people shaking their heads.

Does that mean he was more effective than Duncan today? No. Duncan just got it done, and is undoubtedly very very skilled. But we've rarely seen him simply dominate the opposing center with his pure skill like hakeem often did (best example: Drob in his MVP year). Maybe it's because Duncan didn't have to play against as many elite centers as Hakeem did back then, or maybe it's because Duncan is so good because of his consistence, not his pure skill.

But making a statement like "Hakeem is more skilled than Duncan" isn't that farfetched of a statement, it's a perfectly legit observation, and absolutely no knock on Duncan. Hell we're comparing him to one of the best centers ever. Dude played like a more polished Amare on O and a rich man's AK47 on D. If that's not "skilled" I don't know what is. OF COURSE Duncan has skills. He probably is more skilled than 99.9% of bigmen that played the game (ex: shaq, ewing). Hakeem is just in that 0.1% or so above duncan.
I had a problem with his ratings because he rates player A over player B because player A has more skills.

From that point of view then Scoring Champions >>>> MVP's?
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik
I had a problem with his ratings because he rates player A over player B because player A has more skills.

From that point of view then Scoring Champions >>>> MVP's?
Are you drunk early in the morning?

Hakeem does have more skill/talent than Duncan. He is better on offense and defense. Are you going to deny that? Hakeem was a better player individually. And scoring champions > MVPs? Where does that come in? Since when are scoring champions more skilled/talented than MVPs? Make sense when you post next time.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
There is so much more to rating a player than three categories, a lot of people fail to come to that conclusion. It's not that I totally disagree with what you said but...

You rated them based on

Defense
Offense
Winning

That shows you're either tryng to create some buzz or you're more along the lines of a Konex instead of a KBlaze. You know?

I'll leave it at that and be done with it.
:rollingeyes:

DON picked the three most important categories by far. And DON did talk about awards/accomplisments as well. Do you not agree with Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan? Which category can change the ranking that has already been established?
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by DěN
Are you drunk early in the morning?

Hakeem does have more skill/talent than Duncan. He is better on offense and defense. Are you going to deny that? Hakeem was a better player individually. And scoring champions > MVPs? Where does that come in? Since when are scoring champions more skilled/talented than MVPs? Make sense when you post next time.
Yes, you did state, and I do agree that Hakeem is the better skilled Offensive and Defensive player. HOWEVER I do not agree that you should rank Hakeem over Duncan just because he is more skilled. In doing so, I believe that you think Skills > Accomplishments, which is why I thought you would put Scoring Champ > MVP.

When comparing players, their accomplishments has to come first. Before offensive/defensive. However you seem to throw that out of the window for Duncan, you mentioned it, but didn't act like it was any accomplishment at all.
Someone up there said it, Hakeem maybe the better skilled player, but Duncan gets it done. And thats what great players do. They don't need the flash, they just win. Duncan's accomplishments simply cannot be denied, he was always the man bringing his team to the promised land. 4 champs in 8 years. You don't just use the words "Duncan has done more winning than Hakeem, no doubt about that." THAT doesn't do Duncan justice.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik
Yes, you did state, and I do agree that Hakeem is the better skilled Offensive and Defensive player. HOWEVER I do not agree that you should rank Hakeem over Duncan just because he is more skilled. In doing so, I believe that you think Skills > Accomplishments, which is why I thought you would put Scoring Champ > MVP.

When comparing players, their accomplishments has to come first. Before offensive/defensive. However you seem to throw that out of the window for Duncan, you mentioned it, but didn't act like it was any accomplishment at all.
Someone up there said it, Hakeem maybe the better skilled player, but Duncan gets it done. And thats what great players do. They don't need the flash, they just win. Duncan's accomplishments simply cannot be denied, he was always the man bringing his team to the promised land. 4 champs in 8 years. You don't just use the words "Duncan has done more winning than Hakeem, no doubt about that." THAT doesn't do Duncan justice.

If Hakeem hadn't gotten it done either you would have a legitimate argument. If Hakeem hadn't won 2 championships and 2 Finals MVPs for himself then Duncan might've been better.

Like you said.
A: Hakeem is obviously the more skilled player, better on offense and defense.
B: Duncan is obviously the more accomplished player with more winning.

A is based purely on the player and nothing else. B is based on the player and his teammates, you can't deny that. Its not based purely on the player like A is.

Using simple logic then, A counts more because B is affected by your teammates as well as yourself, while A is just on you. And thats why Hakeem is over Duncan, he's just better and he's gotten good accomplisments of his own. And also, like DON mentioned in his original post, the fact that he has played longer and has had more good years than Duncan, solidifies his spot over Duncan. When Duncan retires, he might be above Hakeem, but for now, he isn't.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

To Duncan' credit, he's only 31. To be compared, and not only compared, but have a legit argument against those two great, great players at a reletivly young age says something in and of itself.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
To Duncan' credit, he's only 31. To be compared, and not only compared, but have a legit argument against those two great, great players at a reletivly young age says something in and of itself.
Yes and I mentioned that. Duncan still has the rest of his career to go. Giving Hakeem and O'Neal the edge right now isn't anything outrageous. Duncan career isn't done and doesn't measure in terms of longevity to Shaq or Hakeem. Which is another reason for Hakeem and O'Neal to be higher than Duncan
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by DěN

If Hakeem hadn't gotten it done either you would have a legitimate argument. If Hakeem hadn't won 2 championships and 2 Finals MVPs for himself then Duncan might've been better.

Like you said.
A: Hakeem is obviously the more skilled player, better on offense and defense.
B: Duncan is obviously the more accomplished player with more winning.

A is based purely on the player and nothing else. B is based on the player and his teammates, you can't deny that. Its not based purely on the player like A is.

Using simple logic then, A counts more because B is affected by your teammates as well as yourself, while A is just on you. And thats why Hakeem is over Duncan, he's just better and he's gotten good accomplisments of his own. And also, like DON mentioned in his original post, the fact that he has played longer and has had more good years than Duncan, solidifies his spot over Duncan. When Duncan retires, he might be above Hakeem, but for now, he isn't.

Do you not factor in HOW a player plays with his teammates?
As in how good a teamplayer that player is?

If you're going to judge and rank players based on individual accomplishments, T-MAC, AI, KOBE(post-Shaq era) will all be up there because their offensive skills are unmatched. However can they win?

Steve Nash comes to mind.. he is the season MVP not because of his personal skills, but how he uses his personal skills to help the team win.

Accomplishments of playoffs, championships are considered because of what I said above. Can a player win with his team.. can he lead his team? that is the question. That should be how you rank players as well.

Weird how you know to throw accomplishments in to rank players, however you throw teamplay out of the equation
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

I don't think Duncan should ever be ranked above those two guys, because he isn't going to get better as a player the rest of his career. He might stack up some more accomplishments, but that doesn't change the fact that he at no point in his career was as good as Hakeem and Shaq. His prime seasons simply do not compare. You're talking about a top 2 offensive center (Shaq) and top 2 defensive center (Hakeem) ALL TIME. Neither Duncans offense nor defense are great on an all-time scale.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:51 PM   #30
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Default Re: Seperating O'Neal, Duncan, and Hakeem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik
Do you not factor in HOW a player plays with his teammates?
As in how good a teamplayer that player is?

If you're going to judge and rank players based on individual accomplishments, T-MAC, AI, KOBE(post-Shaq era) will all be up there because their offensive skills are unmatched. However can they win?

Steve Nash comes to mind.. he is the season MVP not because of his personal skills, but how he uses his personal skills to help the team win.

Accomplishments of playoffs, championships are considered because of what I said above. Can a player win with his team.. can he lead his team? that is the question. That should be how you rank players as well.

Weird how you know to throw accomplishments in to rank players, however you throw teamplay out of the equation

You act like Duncan is any better than Shaq and Hakeem in terms of teamplay. Shaq got to the finals with THREE different teams. Hakeem got to the finals almost a decade apart. Both sustained their level of play for a long time and proved that they can lead completely different teams to the finals.
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