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Old 06-15-2007, 10:23 AM   #16
mlh1981
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

Malone's longevity gives him the nod over Duncan, in my opinion. He was the go to guy during his entire career there wheras Duncan walked into a great situation with the Spurs.

Obviously, Duncan has the skillset to continue this level of play for the next 6-7 years, I think. His game will age well. Until he actually does it, though, I have to give the edge to Malone.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

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And you're counting out Stockton (top 3 pg all time) and Hornacek who was a tough defender and all around player, AS WELL as a good scorer? Stop it. Both Stockton AND Hornacek could and DID hit many tough shots.

I listed Horry and Finley additionally to Manu and Parker. Who did Malone have besides a past his prime Hornacek and Stockton? Byron Russel who could basically do nothing but defend and hit an open jumper? He was a poor man's Bowen. Ostertag could do nothing offensively. Rookie Howard Eisley was the backup PG. He's been out of the league for years now. Shandon Anderson as the SG backup. Antoine Carr, Adam Keefe, Greg Foster, CHriss Morris. Malone's team consisted of the big 3 and scrubs. Duncan's team consists of the big 3 and very good, veteran role-players, including former all-stars.

The Jazz were only good because of Stockton and Malone, who were 34 years old by the time the league had degenerated enough for them to make the finals.

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It's well known that Duncan has sacrificed a lot of his offense for the greater good of the team.

yeah, and Malone's scoring was bad for his team? Maybe Duncan "sacrificed" touches because those would have been less efficient than his teammates taking responsibility? No matter how you twist it, Duncan is not neat Malone as a scorer. Malone scored 25+ ppg for 12 straight seasons, excluding the lockout season. The last time TD got all the touches and scored a lot was last year against the Mavs, and they lost.

Anyway, this argument is far too subjective to have any positive outcome. You cannot accurately quantify the differences in their offense/defense. It's a fact though that Malone is a far superior scorer. And you pretend like Malone did not create open looks for his teammates. Like his teammates did not feed off his presence on the court. Malone wasn't a Kobe-type scorer that freezes his teammates out for a large part of the game.
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Old 06-15-2007, 11:03 AM   #18
Knoe Itawl
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

I listed Horry and Finley additionally to Manu and Parker. Who did Malone have besides a past his prime Hornacek and Stockton? Byron Russel who could basically do nothing but defend and hit an open jumper? He was a poor man's Bowen. Ostertag could do nothing offensively. Rookie Howard Eisley was the backup PG. He's been out of the league for years now. Shandon Anderson as the SG backup. Antoine Carr, Adam Keefe, Greg Foster, CHriss Morris. Malone's team consisted of the big 3 and scrubs. Duncan's team consists of the big 3 and very good, veteran role-players, including former all-stars.

You are acting as if Malone had nothing but garbage on his team and that's just flat out false. You're trying to minimize Malone's squad in order to elevate him, but you're not able to get around the FACT that they were favored OVER the Bulls, and you're not able to get around the fact that even IF he had as bad a team as you're overexaggerating, how does that excuse his choking not only in the Finals but on several other occassions? He started to develop quite the reputation there for choking in big playoff games. Is that excusable to you? Aren't NBA legends made IN THE PLAYOFFS? Sorry, but he had more than enough to win a title or two. He had Sloan, Stockton, Hornacek and more than capable role players.


The Jazz were only good because of Stockton and Malone, who were 34 years old by the time the league had degenerated enough for them to make the finals.

Uh, and how old was Rodman, Jordan and Pippen? That's what I thought.


yeah, and Malone's scoring was bad for his team? Maybe Duncan "sacrificed" touches because those would have been less efficient than his teammates taking responsibility? No matter how you twist it, Duncan is not neat Malone as a scorer. Malone scored 25+ ppg for 12 straight seasons, excluding the lockout season. The last time TD got all the touches and scored a lot was last year against the Mavs, and they lost.

I don't remember saying that Malone's scoring was "bad" for his team. He just had a different role than Duncan. And Duncan sacrifices his scoring because it was better for the team. Period. And when did I ever say Duncan was the scorer Malone was? I said that the difference on d is larger than the difference on offense. Unless you're telling me that Malone was the Jazz's defensive anchor expected to fully control the defensive paint AS WELL AS their offensive rock, expected to put up good scoring numbers as well as facilitate most of the offense from the post position.

Anyway, this argument is far too subjective to have any positive outcome. You cannot accurately quantify the differences in their offense/defense. It's a fact though that Malone is a far superior scorer. And you pretend like Malone did not create open looks for his teammates. Like his teammates did not feed off his presence on the court. Malone wasn't a Kobe-type scorer that freezes his teammates out for a large part of the game.

Actually, it's not really subjective to me at all. Duncan has the individual accomplishments, as well as the titles and he's done it without a secondary superstar each time, and that's a rare feat once, much less 4 times. He's had great players, but no Stockton. I also never "pretended Malone did not create open looks for his teammates" so I don't know where you get that from. It is, however, a fact that Duncan is counted on to be far more of a playmaker from the post than Malone ever was (remember that guy named Stockton, you know the dude that got all those assists?)

Even if he fails to win any more titles he will still be regarded as the best PF of all time, and if he wins one or two more it will only be a question to the most stubborn of stubborn.
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Old 06-15-2007, 11:12 AM   #19
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

Duncan is better cuz he's clutch unlike friggin Malone, Bulls vs UTah NBA Finals, Malone had the chance to give UTah the win with free throws, he had not miss much the whole game but when the game was on the line I saw his hands and lips trembling he was friggin scared, he missed both free throws, Duncan although overrated is better than Malone.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

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You are acting as if Malone had nothing but garbage on his team and that's just flat out false.

You do realie Duncan has one of the best supporting cast of all time, right? Of course Malone's squad was good, but they weren't the reason the Jazz made it to the finals. Stockton and Malone were the reason, with the Spurs it's Duncan and his supporting cast. Players 4-10 on the Spurs are far better than 4-10 on the Jazz. Malone had a worse team around him. Period.

Quote:
but you're not able to get around the FACT that they were favored OVER the Bulls

could you please link me to that fact? Bulls had a 69-13 record when they first met, and 72-10 before, and were the defending champs.
If it's a fact it shouldn't be too hard to give evidence.

Quote:
He started to develop quite the reputation there for choking in big playoff games.

Game 5, 1998 finals: 39 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists
Game 6, 1998 finals: 31 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists

In his two finals, he averaged ~ 25/11/4. What was Duncan averaging this series? Against Detroit in '05?

Quote:
Uh, and how old was Rodman, Jordan and Pippen? That's what I thought.

I'm comparing it to Duncan, who won his titles when in his prime.

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Actually, it's not really subjective to me at all.

nice oxymoron

Last edited by Brunch@Five : 06-15-2007 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:58 PM   #21
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

Duncan is a C
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:27 PM   #22
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

I dont even think it is comparable, Duncan is on a whole other level than Karl Malone ever was IMHO.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:31 PM   #23
Knoe Itawl
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

You do realie Duncan has one of the best supporting cast of all time, right? Of course Malone's squad was good, but they weren't the reason the Jazz made it to the finals. Stockton and Malone were the reason, with the Spurs it's Duncan and his supporting cast. Players 4-10 on the Spurs are far better than 4-10 on the Jazz. Malone had a worse team around him. Period.

No, I don't realize that and as you'll see below where you were mixed up, the Jazz had a BETTER record than the 98 Bulls. You're also trying to pretend that there's lightyears difference between the two teams and that's just more of your exaggerating to prove a point.

could you please link me to that fact? Bulls had a 69-13 record when they first met, and 72-10 before, and were the defending champs.
If it's a fact it shouldn't be too hard to give evidence.


Umm, the 72-10 record was against the SONICS, the 69-13 record was against the Jazz the first time they met. The Jazz had the better record the second time they met, hence the reason they were favored over them and hence the reason they had home court in the series. Maybe you should study the issue a little more since you seem to be a bit mixed up.

Game 5, 1998 finals: 39 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists
Game 6, 1998 finals: 31 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists


And yet, you've admitted that he choked against the Bulls. So I don't know why you're posting stats when any seasoned NBA fan knows they don't often tell the whole story. Like for instance most people with sense knowing that Duncan could have averaged more points on many occassions but did not for the greater good.

In his two finals, he averaged ~ 25/11/4. What was Duncan averaging this series? Against Detroit in '05?

Here we go with the stats again. You know damn well they don't tell the whole story.

I'm comparing it to Duncan, who won his titles when in his prime.

And I'm telling you Pippen Jordan and Rodman were playing elite level ball in their mid thirties and Malone as well as Stockton played at a high level for another several years so I'm not buying your excuses. His age had NOTHING to do with him choking so cut that out.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

Couldn't agree more Miles. Where have you been lately? I thought you might have retired from this part of the internet.

Anyways, my arguments are basically summed up in Knoe' posts. A short conclusion would be Duncan could score 15 points to Malones 30 and still have a greater effect on the game' outcome. That's Duncan... his stats, moreso than any other great, do not tell the story. Only the foolish bring up stats when comparing Duncan to another great.

You have to watch, and not only watch, but understand the game of basketball to appreicate what Duncan provides and does for his team to win games.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown
Such as?
The often overlooked Bob Pettit averaged 26 and 16 over his career and managed to interrupt Russell and Auerbach's Celtic Dynasty. Russell had a bad ankle that series, but it's still impressive. I'm not sure that he's better than Duncan (I never actually watched him) but those numbers are undeniably impressive. 3-time MVP and was First team All-NBA the first ten years of his career.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

If Duncan is a power foward then so is Hakeem Olajuwon...so is Ewing...so is David Robinson...so is Shaq
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:39 PM   #27
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoe Itawl
Malone in his two finals played better individually than Duncan in his last two. And both were at similar stages of their career. It's very simple, the Spurs are a better team than the 90's Jazz, Duncan has other great scorers that can step in for him (Parker and Manu).

Malone had Stockton and Hornacek that could score as well. He had a great coach in Sloan and more than capable role players. And I see you're ignoring the divide between the two in DEFENSE. Or the fact that Duncan's presence in the post opens up the floor for his team. Why are you ignoring that?

It's far more likely and excusable to choke against the GOAT player and team than to play subpar against two weak teams from the western conference who are nowhere near the Bulls.

See above. No matter how much you want to sweep it under the rug, Duncan is vastly superior on defense. And no, it isn't "excusable" to choke in the Finals. That's where your legend is made. It has to count against you. Especially considering that Duncan has been able to do it on multiple occassions. Further, the Jazz were FAVORED over the Bulls the second year.

We can only assume what damage a REAL prime Malone (i mean the 30/12 Malone in his late 20's, not the 25/9 Malone in his mid 30's) would have done in late stages of the playoffs. Too bad his team was never good enough.

This is a cop out. Jordan was in his mid thirties winning titles. Duncan is 31 winning titles. By the way, Malone didn't just choke against the Bulls. He dissapeared in other series as well. The bottom line is that he DID have teams that were good enough to get over the hump, and he could never do it. Had he played better against the Bulls they would have beaten them. Had he played better in other crucial times during the playoffs his team could have won.

Duncan is not better in individual defense than Malone..Amare Stoudamire completely destroys Duncan...doubt he does that to Malone....Duncan is a better shot blocker...Malone is better offensively and defensively one on one..I also remember an old washed up Malone shutting down Duncan in the playoffs
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:44 PM   #28
Knoe Itawl
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

Quote:
Originally Posted by deion2123
Duncan is not better in individual defense than Malone..Amare Stoudamire completely destroys Duncan...doubt he does that to Malone....Duncan is a better shot blocker...Malone is better offensively and defensively one on one..I also remember an old washed up Malone shutting down Duncan in the playoffs

If you don't realize Duncan's defensive value, you don't understand basketball and thus it's pointless to talk to you.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:45 PM   #29
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

i don't know if karl really does have an argument against timmy anymore.

he was a superior scorer, and while having stockton helped him tremendously, if you watched karl, you know he's was virtually unguardable one on one in the low post. not that tim isn't, but tim can be covered. z, nene, camby, and verajo all did a good job one on one this year. karl really was basically a must double when he caught the ball near the blocks.

before this year's playoffs i would have said he was a vastly superior passer, but having seen tim dissect team defenses in over the spring / summer, i've changed my mind on that.

rebounding is close, though i think i'd trust timmy more to secure an important board (i'd take charles or dennis over either of them on this point though).

in terms of defense and leadership i don't think there's even a hint of a doubt that duncan is superior.

both have had some crucial free throw choke jobs in the finals, but by and large duncan has come up big in the clutch and karl hasn't.

i'm an old school guy and most of my faves are from the 80s / 90s, but i can't rank duncan any lower than the best pf ever. just my opinion though. maybe someone else can find a better argument for the mailman.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:46 PM   #30
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Default Re: Please tell me why Malone > Duncan

I disagree with the whole "Malone sucked in the playoffs" thing. he had some disappointing games, and he had some dominating games. the thing about Malone is that he can't dominate a game with his presence. he did so with points and rebounds... almost all players have great stastical games and then less than great ones. didn't Malone have 30 and 40 pt games against the Bulls while everyone said Rodman shut him down? the problem with Malone like I said is that he had little intangible effect on the game. he was like Boozer- scored a lot, grabbed every board but that's all.

I don't think most people think Malone was better than Duncan is.

I don't personally think these two should be compared. there are four types of big men in my opinion:

1. Shaqs and Wilts (Cs)
2. Duncans (CF)
3. Malones (PF)
4. Dirks (SFs/SGs with PF/C size)

guys like Duncan impact the game the same way Centers do. really, by any logical definition, Duncan is a center. how is he not? defensively he plays like a Center... and offensively he plays like a Center. how, then, can you compare him to Malone who is a CONSUMMATE PF? they play the game a different way. Malone wasn't a guy who stood in the middle of the floor and anchored a defense; Malone didn't control the middle. Duncan does these things.

if everyone has equal talent, Shaqs will always be better than Duncans who will always be better than Malones who will always be better than Dirks. do you get what I'm saying? that's how it'll always be. I think Hakeem vs. Duncan makes much more sense as a comparison than Duncan vs. Malone.

Last edited by geeWiz15 : 06-15-2007 at 02:49 PM.
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