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Old 06-12-2007, 07:53 AM   #31
Da KO King
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoGiTaLiA1
On that center/PG question... Which is having more of an adverse effect on the game? I think that the decline in PG play is the main reason the league as a whole is becoming hard to watch(As far as the basketball side of that issue goes anyway). But not having any bigs of a high quality means there are very few teams capable of building the true and tested inside/out thing.
Actually I think its less about the players and more about the coaches when it comes to being hard to watch. The over-coaching and reliance on set plays is killing the creativity and flow of play.

The over-coaching has made players less instictive. For example the New Jersey Net actually give their perimeter players a list of three dribble moves to use against a bigman who hedges too high or wide on a side screen. That kind of over-coaching leads players to start playing the same as their peers instead of letting them develope their own unique style.

The reliance on set plays makes the defense work less. Against a set plays you more or less know what you will have to defend.

Against a set play team if they go with a 4 High setup and the PG passes to a wing player the player defending the PG knows a UCLA cut from the PG is the next likely move while the player defending the ballside wing and the player defending the ballside elbow know there is a good chance a side screen will be the next action.

Against a motion team you can't be certain whats going to happen. It could be a set play or a special entry into the motion. More than that those you really don't know what the players will do on the perimeter cause they have no concrete next move.
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:56 AM   #32
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Um the problem with screens is not really always the screener it's the person who is supposed to use the screen......no one sets up a defender anymore and they never wait for the screens to be set up properly...Even guys who are known for off the ball movement really just run nonstop.

O and I hate that scenario thorpe was talking about...happens everytime....it's so stupid.
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:31 AM   #33
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KWALI
Um the problem with screens is not really always the screener it's the person who is supposed to use the screen......no one sets up a defender anymore and they never wait for the screens to be set up properly...Even guys who are known for off the ball movement really just run nonstop.

O and I hate that scenario thorpe was talking about...happens everytime....it's so stupid.
That falls into the off ball movement I spoke on earlier.

What annoys me most is the NBA does the Real Training Camp specials and I see guys like Byron Scott give his team fundamentally flawed information. He's actually told his team that the key to off ball movement was beating the defense to the spot you want to go.

No it's not Byron, it's going where the defense is not. If the defense chases you curl, they come under you pop, etc...
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Old 06-12-2007, 02:46 PM   #34
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
On that center/PG question... Which is having more of an adverse effect on the game? I think that the decline in PG play is the main reason the league as a whole is becoming hard to watch(As far as the basketball side of that issue goes anyway). But not having any bigs of a high quality means there are very few teams capable of building the true and tested inside/out thing.

I have a pet interest in the league's PG play. I finally came to the conclusion that the league just isn't designed to reward true PG play. If you made a list of the best college PGs of the last 30 years, most of them would have been either guys who never made it, and found a niche in europe, guys who completely flamed out, or guys who didn't really live up to their expectations. This may be for a variety of reasons, but it's true for the most part. Guys who led national title teams, like Jason Garder, Khalid El Amin, and Mateen Cleaves all either never made it, or were gone shortly there after.

My belief is that the illegal defense rules have prevented teams from running any defense really complicated enough to warrant a genuine PG run offense. One of the main jobs of a traditional PG is to switch the ball from one side to another quickly, to get the defense moving laterally, which hopefully will open the lane for just long enough to get penetration. The illegal defense does all of that work for an NBA offense. On top of that, with only a 24 second shot clock, there really isn't enough time to run an offense remotely intricate enough to require a real analytic PG. The league has made a living converting undersized college SGs into PGs for the last 20 years, because the skills those backcourt mates bring to the table just don't mean as much. Only in the last 3-4 years has there been an influx of some new talent in real PGs, and I'm hopefull that it's a reaction to the euro influence, and the intro of the slightly more lenient zone rules. But it doen't mean anything to draft Chris Paul, or Deron Williams. It will mean more when teams start filling out their rosters with more guys like Steve Blake then Flip Murray. Transcendent talents don't really count. It's not indicative of an appreciation of that style.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

On the topic of zone defenses, the thing that kills me is how so many high school players view the zone as a defense that you get to rest. It's really only effective if the personnel on the court are willing to be active, get in the passing lanes, and make stuff happen, instead of just sagging in and waiting for the offense to move.

And offensively, players want to just shoot shoot shoot against a zone, while the most effective way to attack it is inside-out. Which, of course, still allows guys their shots; just better ones.

And I agree that the 3 second defensive rule has butchered zone in the NBA. It's not really worth playing.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:21 PM   #36
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

What I don't understand is why coaches are so afraid of the defensive 3 second rule? Simply have an assistant coach go to Syracuse and pick Jim Boheim's brain for a few days on his matchup zone.

The 'Cuse Zone would work in the NBA cause the middle defender matches up on the offenses post threat and as long as he's taught proper helpside defense will be able to fill his man responsibilities and defend his zone.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:29 PM   #37
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

This is a really golden thread for lots of people, because I'm still in high school (freshman) and hope to get into the basketball team, this has some great tips in here!
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
It seems like every time a guard sees a switch (and this goes right up to the pro level), they want to pull it out and iso on a bigger defender and try to take him the dribble, then he invariably sags, and they end up shooting some lousey jumper they could have gotten 3 other times before they got the switch.
I was going to make a thread about this a while ago, but forgot about it.

It's really funny when you watch a guy like Nash. His pick and roll with Amare is so dangerous when trying to fight through or go under (because of Nash's vision/passing and his jumper), that defenses are almost forced to switch. Once that switch occurs, Nash backs out to isolate the bigman. I have no problem with this, as a guy like Nash can beat a Kwame Brown (this happened a lot against the Lakers) off the dribble whenever he wants.

Problem is what he does next. Nash is one of the smartest PG's in the game, and yet even he has major lapses in these situations. He'll start a few crossovers, toying with the big, and then he'll shoot a fadeaway. I just don't get that. He could've created the space needed to shoot that fadeaway against his original defender pretty easily, and the arm going out to contest the shot wouldn't have been nearly as long. It just doesn't make any sense. If you want to score, use the speed/agility advantage to get to the basket, and if you don't want to score, dump it in to the bigman who now has the PG on his back. And if the defense has already rotated to get their other bigman on the screener, there is bound to be another mismatch somewhere, with the first bigman still on the ball.

I mean, Nash's jumper is one of those ones that you're completely surprised whenever it misses. You constantly expect it to go in. But a Nash layup? That's even more of a sure thing. Not that Nash shoots the jumper every time, but he still does it too often. Tony Parker is probably the best in the league at not settling for jumpers on those switches. It seems like EVERY time he gets that switch, he takes it to the whole and scores with ease. He does that every time anyways though, even with a PG guarding him, so I guess there's not much of a difference.

Great thread though. The guys talking in here are the ones that I've learned the most from since coming here.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:53 PM   #39
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

on the topic of screen switches, I've seen numerous PGs drawing the center or PF out, but do the exact same thing they would do to normal PGs anyway. I can only remember flashes of when a perimeter player got a PF to defend him and drove to the basket, and that was T-Mac on Camby, just blew past him like a breeze.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:54 PM   #40
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
What I don't understand is why coaches are so afraid of the defensive 3 second rule? Simply have an assistant coach go to Syracuse and pick Jim Boheim's brain for a few days on his matchup zone.

The 'Cuse Zone would work in the NBA cause the middle defender matches up on the offenses post threat and as long as he's taught proper helpside defense will be able to fill his man responsibilities and defend his zone.
I think it boils down to that at the NBA level, coaches are baby sitters almost as much as they are teachers sometimes. I mean, just look at the Cavs: Mike Brown has created virtually no offense for when LeBron is on the bench. It's pitiful. I think if more coaches tried to be teachers and strategists, they would come up with more effective zones and offenses. But this would require teaching players something they often wouldn't want to learn, and being more than just a big name guy sitting on the bench to argue with the refs.

You'd think assistant coaches would fill this role, but I think often times the head coach holds to much power in terms of what the team is doing on offense and defense. I'll bet if a team took an NFL type approach, utilizing coaches that specialize in one side of the ball, you would see more effective adjustments and more varied schemes. The issue with that, however, is that the players have to be willing to buy into it, which would probably be a tough thing to get alot of them to do.

The NBA is just too much of a soap opera, and it prevents good fundamentals and basketball strategy sometimes. And we all know it bleeds, too; kids see LeBron the one man team, and they want to be a one man team. Coaches see their professional counterparts working the refs all the time, and they think thats what coaching is about. I mean, there's still plenty of great coaches at the college and high school levels, as well as younger, but at the same time there's plenty of bad ones too. And it can be painful to watch sometimes.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:15 PM   #41
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Decided to add another of my views on the game....


Fastbreak basketball has died in the NBA. Don't understand why or when but NBA coaches and their need to control every aspect of the game have destroyed the fastbreak.

There are currently off the top of my head only four teams I can name with a solid fastbreak system; the Phoenix Suns, Denver Nuggets, Utah Jazz, and Washington Wizards. What makes it worse is the Wizards have one of the worst decision makers of all the starting PG's in the league so their break isn't as effective as it should be.

Note: Gilbert Arenas and why he frustrates me more than any player in the NBA will be my next post

When talking about a true fastbreak system it should have three phases:
  1. Early Push, also called primary break.
  2. Early Flow, also called secondary break.
  3. Continuity.

Early push is exactly what it sounds like. Push the ball early into the possession looking to get a numbers advantage. Obviously, if you have more offensive players than defensive players the offense is likely to get a good shot.

Early push can be achieved many ways. Some teams like a middle push while some prefer sideline. Some do it with one guard while others like to use two. My personal favorite is the Laker Two Guard fastbreak.

Note: if I see enough interest in it I’ll do a post on the Laker break.

Early flow is the backup to early push. If the Push did not create an advantageous situation for the offense you flow in a half-court offense. The logic is while you may not have a numbers advantage from the push you may have created some mismatches: with a big on a small, small on a big, etc.

Be it a foul line “iso” for Dirk Nowitzki, Ray Allen coming off screens for a jumper, or Tony Parker getting a ballscreen for a drive to the hoop. There are hundreds of early flow options.

After flow comes Continuity. Continuity is quite literally continuing your half-court offense from where flow left it.

Say Flow left you with four players on the perimeter and one on the low post your continuity can be a Four Out One In motion passing game. Got an overload on one side of court? Then your continuity can be a Triangle Offense. Like Flow above it, there are lots more options for continuity.

The beef I have with the NBA is now teams that can’t get the advantage in the Early Push are skipping the Early Flow phase and going directly into Continuity. Instead of seeing what they can create early they are holding the ball up, allowing the defense to get set, and then running their play. There are missing a staggering number of mismatch chances.

If you watch the game tonight watch for this cause Cleveland are notorious for doing it. Every time you see it survey the floor and I’m willing to bet that at least half of the time they do it they miss out on a mismatch chance.

Last edited by Da KO King : 01-01-2008 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:34 PM   #42
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

I think Clevelands problem with not using the secondary break stems from the fact that besides Lebron and maybe Gibson, every other player for them has a critical weakness in their offensive game which doesnt allow them to exploit those mismatches. If Gooden has Parker on him, can he actually use that advantage? Chances are they throw it to Gooden down low, where Gooden is not very good anyways, he tries to do a move and somebody comes over on a double and he loses the ball. The whole point of this is that I think the decline in play in the NBA is that players as a whole arent as well rounded anymore, teams are gearing more towards specialists with massive holes in thier games. Whether this is due to coaching(at any level) or the increase in number of teams is up for debate.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:37 PM   #43
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raindrops
I think Clevelands problem with not using the secondary break stems from the fact that besides Lebron and maybe Gibson, every other player for them has a critical weakness in their offensive game which doesnt allow them to exploit those mismatches. If Gooden has Parker on him, can he actually use that advantage? Chances are they throw it to Gooden down low, where Gooden is not very good anyways, he tries to do a move and somebody comes over on a double and he loses the ball. The whole point of this is that I think the decline in play in the NBA is that players as a whole arent as well rounded anymore, teams are gearing more towards specialists with massive holes in thier games. Whether this is due to coaching(at any level) or the increase in number of teams is up for debate.
I dunno, it seems to me that they are just trained to pull it back out. It kills me when LeBron receives the ball, waits for the defense to get into position, and THEN makes his move. Just horrible offense.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:43 PM   #44
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

It's hard to visualize the way you put it but I understand what your saying especially when it come to the Cavs.....

These ****ers are so dumb top to bottom. Who said you could have Larry (snooze)Hughes and Recede Wallace on the same team (and Drew is playing well). When you put a PG on he can't shoot and The Spurs get an extra defender.

They really jus don't know what to do....I've seen Drew call for the quick hit on a mis-match and he got looked off. However the Spurs are pretty good defensively and helping anyway so it's not the easiest team to fastbreak on

Again though I think the Pro level it's pretty much too late for you to break a guy down to the start with basics, ego is involved etc.....I don't know the extent of Browns coaching acumen but he's not the only one..I remember then O'Brien Celtics did the same thing just play active D and jack shots...no real offense just Pierce and OG# 8 Walker..running **** with Kenny facilitating.

They gotta get all the agents, money etc outta of the H.S ranks...that's the only way it's gonna happen..cuz your not gonna get the money outta the NCAA and their is even less teaching there than in the NBA...which is patently backwards.

All these things are related though...for off tehball movement you need teamates that understand spacing...U need to understand setting up defenders. you need to understand reading defenses (like when to curl, fade etc.) So it's not like an NBA coach can just work on one thing....
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Gilbert Arenas would give me a heart attack…


If I was coaching I’d beg the front office to trade Gilbert Arenas. Coaching Gil would put my mental health in jeopardy. I’d be a stressed out, grumpy, highly irritable bundle of nerves.

Long before GeeWiz came to the site and began his quest of “over-rating Gilbert to counterbalance his under-rating by the public” I made a post about Gil that was damn near laughed off the board. I said Gil had the athleticism and skill to be one of the five best perimeter players in the game.

His jumpshot range is nuts, his mid-range game is money, and he has the athleticism and build to beat off the dribble or create space against any defender in the league.

The problem is Gil knows all of that. He knows he can drop 30 on people with little to know problem. He knows that his jumpshot form has no mechanical changes out to about 35 feet. He knows defenders are so aware of his jumper that a pump fake will easily get him a pull-up J.

Gil does not seem to understand that just because the defense is terrified you will give them 40 or 50 does not mean you should go get 40 or 50.

At times he makes decisions on the court that would get any other player pulled from the game. That is what Kobe was talking about with his “quality shots” comment this past season. I’ve seen Gil shoot 27 foot treys on a four on three break.

Hell, even his game winner against the Bucks this past season wasn’t that great a decision. Due to the camera angle they use in most replays you can’t see it but as he was bringing the ball up court the Bucks were going to trap Gilbert up top leaving Antawn Jamison WIDE OPEN for a 17 footer on the baseline.

As much ability as he has Gil’s approach to the game minimizes his impact. He’s so focused on creating points for himself he neglects to create effectively for his team.

Last edited by Da KO King : 01-01-2008 at 01:10 PM.
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