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Old 06-11-2007, 05:32 PM   #1
Da KO King
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Thumbs up Get to know my views on the game....

Seeing as how the "Ask me anything/Get to know me" threads have become popular I figured I'd do my own. Only difference is that mine will be basketball related cause that's the tie that binds us all together here....



I'll start off by saying I think the single most important aspect of basketball once you pass the "biddy stages" (ages 5 to 11) is off ball movement.

Each team has five players so if you break it down to a simply math each player will only have the ball 20% of the time they are on the floor. That's a lot of time to be without the ball.

With effective off ball movement you are essentially a threat to score any time your team has the ball. Whether or not the ball is in your hands you can always be in position to get an "easy" shot within your range or skillset.

Off ball movement is the one part of the game that is truly all about smarts and has no reliance at all on your athletic ability or the ability and skill of your teammates.

Like I said in a LeBron thread a few days ago, no matter how low the defenses opinion of Drew Gooden is they will not double LeBron coming off a lowpost downscreen from Gooden. Doing so would stop LeBron from hitting a jumper but leave Gooden wide-open for a dunk down low. No team in their right mind views that as an effective gameplan.

Off ball movement. The most essential skill in basketball. Sadly, its the most ignored in the NBA.




If you are interested (which I doubt anyone will be) in learning more of my views on the game just ask a question.

Last edited by Da KO King : 11-01-2007 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Ok I'll bite -
Lets start with the best match up with 2 teams ...
The current finals Cav's and the Spurs ...
How does the Cav's defend against the Spurs ?

Tim Duncan - post up , bank shot , leak out top of the lane jump shot
Rotating centers Oberto Elson Horry- weak side offense , put backs
Bowen - weak side 3 pt shooter
Finley - outside spot up shooter
Parker - slice dice / transitional jumper

This is my take :
Put Gooden and Ilgaskas in a 2 man zone.
(absolutely no weak side help) (Absolutely no body 6 feet to the hoop)
James floats on Bowen , because he is NOT an offensive threat
Palovic - never leaves Finley's side , Finley is older and has less create
Gibson / Snow block Parker from ever entering the lane, if that means Parker and Duncan takes jumpers all day long and wins so be it.

If Huges or Snow can back off on Ginobili and and stop penetration which I doubt maybe the Cav's could make the Spurs a jump shooting team.

IMO Parker as I stated before the series will be the MVP , because Cav's really don't have a player to stop him , but the bigger ankle breaker is Ginobili coming off the bench and running nuts like he does.

So with your basketball knowledge what would you do if you were the Cav's to defend the Spurs ?
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

This seems like a reasonable opportunity to engage a good poster in a legit basketball topic.

I agree about off the ball movement. I coach at the middle school level, and it is a focus. I also take a similar interest in off the ball defense. One of the first things I ask my new players every year after during our first scrimage is who are you guarding. Invaviably, they'll point to whoever it is they're on. Occasionally, some slightly more advanced kid will say the ball. Eventually, I try to get them to realize that they're all guarding the same thing, the hoop. Eventually we lose all the petty, "that was your guy" crap that plagues.

Anyway, how do you feel about the league's illegal defense rules. These are essentially responsible for a lot of the piss poor off ball defense that I appreciate, and in my view, has stagnated a lot of the off ball movement on offense you appreciate. What's your take?
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper
Ok I'll bite -
Lets start with the best match up with 2 teams ...
The current finals Cav's and the Spurs ...

How does the Cav's defend against the Spurs ?
Granted I don't think the Cavs players are smart enough to have learned it in under a week (the coaching staff isn't smart enough to teach it in a year so I'll cut the players some slack ) but I would use a 2-3 Matchup Zone against the Spurs.

The zone would effectively limit Tony Parker's options on Screen Actions. Mid-Screens wouldn't create huge mismatches cause it would be a guard to guard switch. Side-Screens aren't as effective cause Parker is a willing jump shooter and you have help defenders in position to trap Parker or the screener.

The zone would limit Duncan cause no matter what he would be in a spot that lead to a double on the pass. Plus he's have to move around more for post position which would lead him to tire quicker.

Ginobilli wouldn't have clear paths to the hoop due to the amount of defenders in the lane. With his tendency to be a bit out of control you could pick up some charges on him possibly sending him to the bench early.

I'm a huge Mike Finley fan but he's never been comfortable handling the rock against pressure and has a tendency to force passes sometimes. On any skip pass to him on the wing I'm trapping the ball.

The beauty of the matchup zone variation is by matching up on Duncan you're middle man can always play the middle and not get called for a "defensive three second" cause he's always within range of Duncan.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
This seems like a reasonable opportunity to engage a good poster in a legit basketball topic.

I agree about off the ball movement. I coach at the middle school level, and it is a focus. I also take a similar interest in off the ball defense. One of the first things I ask my new players every year after during our first scrimage is who are you guarding. Invaviably, they'll point to whoever it is they're on. Occasionally, some slightly more advanced kid will say the ball. Eventually, I try to get them to realize that they're all guarding the same thing, the hoop. Eventually we lose all the petty, "that was your guy" crap that plagues.

Anyway, how do you feel about the league's illegal defense rules. These are essentially responsible for a lot of the piss poor off ball defense that I appreciate, and in my view, has stagnated a lot of the off ball movement on offense you appreciate. What's your take?
I hate the new rules. Mostly cause it removed my favorite defensive system, the SOS Pressure Defense, from the game in its intended form. As a off ball defense guy you'd love that system. It was created by Bob Kloppenburg.

No league official can give it any legitimacy. It's blatantly designed to discourage contesting shots in the lane or drawing charges.

The worst part is its nearly impossible to teach your interior players solid off ball defense cause the interpretation of "actively defending" is pretty much left up to the ref.

I don't think it lead to the lack of off ball movement though. I think that's due to less youth coaches running motion offenses than in the past.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

i agree re: the off the ball movement, king and the off the ball d, thorpe. what are your thoughts on setting screens today? this past weekend espn classic had a marathon of nba finals, and the screens that bulls, pacers, and jazz set were so effective. i just don't see the same commitment to getting teammates open. or maybe i'm a jaded old man.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

I can't agree more about the lack of proper offenses being run at the youth level, but in fact, it's mostly due to the lack of proper defense being taught. No one teaches basic man to man principles. I mean, believe me, you don't have to be Pat Riley to realize that sitting in a soft 2-3 zone and letting kids from the ages 8-14 try and shoot over it is going to result in misses, but what good does it do for the kids.
Personally, I spend half an hour of my 4 hours of practice time each week going over basic man to man principles. Without any man to play against, no teams run any basic motion offenses. Everyone is stuck running gimmick zone offenses that are designed to set up pop screens for the handfull of kids who can shoot, and overloading one side of the floor.
I run some zone, but it's all traps, and what I call trap counters, which are designed to look like the traps, but then soften up, to catch teams who fall into a cookie cutter approach to running an offense. I leave most of the defensive callouts up to my captain.

The entire "allowing of the zone" movement that the NBA put in, has been pretty lame. The only reason it was put in was to make it easier for officials to call illegal defense by using the layout of the court to create the rules, rather then relying on the interpretation of foul line extended. It has created some extra pass requirements on the strongside, where guards can sit on a post player from the top of the key, but it's only pesky at best. And it has created some limited help in vertical help, in that weakside defenders can now drop, but there still is no horizontal help from the weakside if an offense doesn't want there to be. They just plant guys on the weakside.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
i agree re: the off the ball movement, king and the off the ball d, thorpe. what are your thoughts on setting screens today? this past weekend espn classic had a marathon of nba finals, and the screens that bulls, pacers, and jazz set were so effective. i just don't see the same commitment to getting teammates open. or maybe i'm a jaded old man.
Not only are you not imagining it, its trickling down to youth levels of ball also.

I went to a high school exposure camp last weekend. The whole weekend I seen hardly any true screens set.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
I can't agree more about the lack of proper offenses being run at the youth level, but in fact, it's mostly due to the lack of proper defense being taught. No one teaches basic man to man principles. I mean, believe me, you don't have to be Pat Riley to realize that sitting in a soft 2-3 zone and letting kids from the ages 8-14 try and shoot over it is going to result in misses, but what good does it do for the kids.
Personally, I spend half an hour of my 4 hours of practice time each week going over basic man to man principles. Without any man to play against, no teams run any basic motion offenses. Everyone is stuck running gimmick zone offenses that are designed to set up pop screens for the handfull of kids who can shoot, and overloading one side of the floor.
I run some zone, but it's all traps, and what I call trap counters, which are designed to look like the traps, but then soften up, to catch teams who fall into a cookie cutter approach to running an offense. I leave most of the defensive callouts up to my captain.

The entire "allowing of the zone" movement that the NBA put in, has been pretty lame. The only reason it was put in was to make it easier for officials to call illegal defense by using the layout of the court to create the rules, rather then relying on the interpretation of foul line extended. It has created some extra pass requirements on the strongside, where guards can sit on a post player from the top of the key, but it's only pesky at best. And it has created some limited help in vertical help, in that weakside defenders can now drop, but there still is no horizontal help from the weakside if an offense doesn't want there to be. They just plant guys on the weakside.

Reading the topic starter posts as well as yours make me realize how far I am from being really knowledgeable. It's really awesome reading that there are still coaches for kids who want to teach them actual man to man defense. I remember in middle school all my coach wanted to teach us was zone defense. He thought it was bad for us to play man to man, therefore he would bench of us if we did such a thing on a consistent basis.

I remember running two specific plays to break the zone, 21 and 14. I use to be the cutter and I would get into the paint no matter what obstacle stood in front of me. 21 consisted of no real point guard, instead the guards were on the top of the key with probably 8 inches of horizontal spacing. The center stood on the free throw line, while the forwards stood on the wing outside the three point line. The usual play was me either getting the ball and trying to get into the paint, or me cutting and getting the ball from either the center or one of the guards on top.

14 consisted of 4 players lined up horizontally across the free throw line. One on the far left wing, the other on the left free throw corner, the other on the right free throw corner, and the other in the far right wing. It usually gave us no spacing and would be a pathetic play to run.

Anyways props for teaching these kids fundamentals.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

I'm not as bothered by the lack of quality screens as I am by the fact that no one seems to understand how to seal anyone after a screen. Pivot, open up, the whole point of forcing a switch on a screen is that the screener is going to have his defender on his back now, and if it's a normal big on small screen, it's probably going to be a smaller defender. Everyone just immediately gives that up. It drives me nuts.
It seems like every time a guard sees a switch (and this goes right up to the pro level), they want to pull it out and iso on a bigger defender and try to take him the dribble, then he invariably sags, and they end up shooting some lousey jumper they could have gotten 3 other times before they got the switch.

One of the newer rule interpretations that I didn't like was the overenforcing of the call on the dribble hand off, or circle rub where the the guard runs off of the rump of a guy at the high post who's facing the hoop. An offensive guy can't stick his rump out toward a defender running dead at him without getting an offensive foul called, but if he's going to the hoop, he can hurl himself at a guy, throw the ball over the photographers row without ever looking at the hoop, and walk to the line for two free throws before the whistle even blows.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPigto
Reading the topic starter posts as well as yours make me realize how far I am from being really knowledgeable. It's really awesome reading that there are still coaches for kids who want to teach them actual man to man defense. I remember in middle school all my coach wanted to teach us was zone defense. He thought it was bad for us to play man to man, therefore he would bench of us if we did such a thing on a consistent basis.

I remember running two specific plays to break the zone, 21 and 14. I use to be the cutter and I would get into the paint no matter what obstacle stood in front of me. 21 consisted of no real point guard, instead the guards were on the top of the key with probably 8 inches of horizontal spacing. The center stood on the free throw line, while the forwards stood on the wing outside the three point line. The usual play was me either getting the ball and trying to get into the paint, or me cutting and getting the ball from either the center or one of the guards on top.

14 consisted of 4 players lined up horizontally across the free throw line. One on the far left wing, the other on the left free throw corner, the other on the right free throw corner, and the other in the far right wing. It usually gave us no spacing and would be a pathetic play to run.

Anyways props for teaching these kids fundamentals.
I think every coach in the world runs a variation of that "21" play.

At my school it had minimal movement. Basically a two guard front with a guard on each wing and two forwards in the corners. The center would flash to whoever had the ball.

As simplistic as the play was it was amazing how many cheap point sit would get.

Last edited by Da KO King : 06-11-2007 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
I can't agree more about the lack of proper offenses being run at the youth level, but in fact, it's mostly due to the lack of proper defense being taught. No one teaches basic man to man principles. I mean, believe me, you don't have to be Pat Riley to realize that sitting in a soft 2-3 zone and letting kids from the ages 8-14 try and shoot over it is going to result in misses, but what good does it do for the kids.
Personally, I spend half an hour of my 4 hours of practice time each week going over basic man to man principles. Without any man to play against, no teams run any basic motion offenses. Everyone is stuck running gimmick zone offenses that are designed to set up pop screens for the handfull of kids who can shoot, and overloading one side of the floor.
I run some zone, but it's all traps, and what I call trap counters, which are designed to look like the traps, but then soften up, to catch teams who fall into a cookie cutter approach to running an offense. I leave most of the defensive callouts up to my captain.

The entire "allowing of the zone" movement that the NBA put in, has been pretty lame. The only reason it was put in was to make it easier for officials to call illegal defense by using the layout of the court to create the rules, rather then relying on the interpretation of foul line extended. It has created some extra pass requirements on the strongside, where guards can sit on a post player from the top of the key, but it's only pesky at best. And it has created some limited help in vertical help, in that weakside defenders can now drop, but there still is no horizontal help from the weakside if an offense doesn't want there to be. They just plant guys on the weakside.
Have to agree its frustrating cause as I mentioned I'm a big fan of off ball movement.

By teaching players motion offense at a early age you are teaching them decision making, proper spacing, and how to get themselves and their teammates open. Instead of players that look lost anytime the offense breakdowns down into a freelance situation which leads to the standard mid-screen you can be confident that they can freelance and get a quality shot.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
I think every coach in the world runs a variation of that "21" play.

At my school it had minimal movement. Basically a two guard front with a guard on each wing and two forwards in the corners. The center would flash to whoever had the ball.

As simplistic as the play was it was amazing how many cheap point sit would get.

Yeah it's very simple, but most kids were too stupid to defend it.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Reading the topic starter posts as well as yours make me realize how far I am from being really knowledgeable. It's really awesome reading that there are still coaches for kids who want to teach them actual man to man defense.

The sad thing is that I love zone defense. I find it to be incredibly interesting, and some of the most thoughtful defense that can be played, designed specifically to exploit a teams weaknesses. It's just not appropriate for young kids. They can't shoot or handle the ball well enough to attack it, they don't have the patience, and it creates a myriad of bad habits, like shooting from way out of your range. Almost everyone knows that kid who shot lights out a little kid, then got to high school and couldn't get his shot off. That's because his shot got butchered trying to shoot over zones from 5-8th grade. I'm sure he scored a lot, and got plenty of attention, but it didn't really do him any good. I wouldn't be opposed to outlawing zones in youth leagues. Good zone offense and defense is rooted in man to man principles anyway. So even when guys get developed enough to deal with it, they haven't been taught the basics, like how to close out on defense, or how to move without the ball on offense.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: Get to know my views on the game....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
I'm not as bothered by the lack of quality screens as I am by the fact that no one seems to understand how to seal anyone after a screen. Pivot, open up, the whole point of forcing a switch on a screen is that the screener is going to have his defender on his back now, and if it's a normal big on small screen, it's probably going to be a smaller defender. Everyone just immediately gives that up. It drives me nuts.
It seems like every time a guard sees a switch (and this goes right up to the pro level), they want to pull it out and iso on a bigger defender and try to take him the dribble, then he invariably sags, and they end up shooting some lousey jumper they could have gotten 3 other times before they got the switch....
I can't blame this on the player though. Many NBA coaches preach this. Teams are so obsessed with getting a perimeter guy iso'ed on a interior that they basically coach the interior guy to get out the way if a switch takes place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
One of the newer rule interpretations that I didn't like was the overenforcing of the call on the dribble hand off, or circle rub where the the guard runs off of the rump of a guy at the high post who's facing the hoop. An offensive guy can't stick his rump out toward a defender running dead at him without getting an offensive foul called, but if he's going to the hoop, he can hurl himself at a guy, throw the ball over the photographers row without ever looking at the hoop, and walk to the line for two free throws before the whistle even blows....
You sound eerily similar to Mark Cuban with the last little bit.

Can't say I disagree at all though.
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