Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-04-2007, 08:26 PM   #1
Michael Jordan
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 33
Michael Jordan has an OK reputation so far
Default The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

What you gotta know about Wilt (if you dont already) is that despite being the biggest guy out there and putting up all those crazy numbers at first, Starting about a year after his 50ppg and 45ppg seasons the NBA changed some rules over the next 3 years. They widened the lane by 4 feet, instituted an offensive goaltending rule, added a 3 second defense rule, outlawed the inbound pass over the backboard, and outlawed his leaping from the foul line to get closer to the rim on free-throw attempts. The results? He went from 50ppg and 45ppg to 37ppg 35ppg 34ppg and down to 24ppg and worse after the last rule changes were made in 1966-1967. His rebounds also went down steadily from 24 to 18 as well.....and his FT% went down about 20%. Honestly I don't consider anything he did before 1966-1967 legit. He was still a great rebounder but that should be expected considering the size advantages he had. But his scoring went way downhill and only 3 of his record 32 60 points games came in or after 1966-1967.

He wasn't playing with anything near current rules before that. He could stay in the paint all he wanted on defense, grab his teammates shots off the rim or in mid air and slam it home, he could dive at the rim on free throws....etc etc. Nothing he was doing the first and best 4 years would've been allowed in the modern NBA. I don't think they changed it because he was so good, he was just simply taking advantage of the situation and these were great rules that are still being used today. If you think them changing the rules makes him that much greater than you have to think the same thing about Mikan as well, they changed just as many rules for him as well. If making Wilt play using modern rules turns him from a 50ppg 25rpg MONSTER into a 20ppg 18rpg player I can't imagine what he would do playing in a modern NBA on top of the new rules....say early to mid 90's or so. Playing against Shaq, Olajuwan, Ewing, Mourning, Robinson, Mutombo....etc etc etc all big solid Centers in their prime, not small ok 6-9 Centers (more like blown up power forwards). Wilt might get his **** pushed in........ He's still an all-time great but I wish people would fess up and admit his great early games and seasons were strictly due to the awful rules at the time and inferior competition.Add his godawful 22ppg avg and only 2 rings then this is where the Myth should well and truly get busted.
Michael Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:33 PM   #2
Soccer10
Banned
 
Soccer10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: _ _
Posts: 937
Soccer10 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

If we're doubting Wilt then we should doubt Kareem, Magic, Bird and everyone else from the 70's and 80's.

Here, here are some nice stats for you

Kareem in his 2nd year had his 2nd best statistical season ever and averaged 31.7 ppg and 16 rebounds.
That very same year Wilt was clearly on a decline and he wasn't a player he once was, he was probably around 35 or so years old and he still averaged 27.3 ppg and 18.4 rebounds which is on par with Kareem's 2nd best statistical season ever.
That tells you nothing?

How about this?

Robert Parish came to the league only 4 years after Wilt retired and in his first year he averaged 9 points. You know how much he averaged in 1990? 19 points a game.
Obviously yeah, he was only a rookie when he averaged 9 points and he improved but if the league was so bad how come he didn't dominate right away but in 1990 with 564 years he still averaged 19 points a game?

Think about it...

People take away many things from Wilt simply because they weren't there when he played and don't know anything about that time except for what they've read or heard.. Sad, indeed.
Soccer10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:38 PM   #3
geeWiz15
Quality Posts™
 
geeWiz15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: limbo
Posts: 5,765
geeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation heregeeWiz15 has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

ok all thats gonna happen here is 20 people are gonna come in here and copy Kblaze's post extravaganza word for word and we're going to have 0 intelligent discussion.
geeWiz15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:43 PM   #4
Soccer10
Banned
 
Soccer10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: _ _
Posts: 937
Soccer10 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Yeah man, that KBlaze's post got me thinking. The above part is what I wrote on one foreign message board.

People also say that Jerry West would be nothing today or in the 80's, 90's, whenever because he was short and unathletic.

Well, he retired at 36, only 5 years before Magic and he averaged 20 points in his last season.

I think people tend to underestimate people who have played before the NBA really become popular which was in the 80's when Magic and Bird came to the league.

Another interesting thing.

They didn't count blocks when Wilt played. Imagine if they did. He'd have thousands of triple doubles and a career average of over 5 bpg, for sure.
Soccer10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:50 PM   #5
DØN
Banned
 
DØN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 607
DØN has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Wilt's place in history?

1.Jordan
2.Kareem
3.Wilt

No more needs to be said
DØN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:55 PM   #6
DØN
Banned
 
DØN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 607
DØN has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeWiz15
ok all thats gonna happen here is 20 people are gonna come in here and copy Kblaze's post extravaganza word for word and we're going to have 0 intelligent discussion.
What thread was this "KBlaze's" post on? Just curious
DØN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:59 PM   #7
Soccer10
Banned
 
Soccer10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: _ _
Posts: 937
Soccer10 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34138
Soccer10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 09:00 PM   #8
-primetime-
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

i just wish his 100 pt. game was erased from the record book...

him averaging over 50 pts. a game for an entire season is some what ridiculas as well...

Wilt is one of the greatest of all time no question but some of his numbers are just plain god like...I wish they didn't exist because of the era he played in.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 09:00 PM   #9
MaxFly
Stylin' on you
 
MaxFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 8,393
MaxFly is popular on this boardMaxFly is popular on this boardMaxFly is popular on this boardMaxFly is popular on this boardMaxFly is popular on this board
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer10
If we're doubting Wilt then we should doubt Kareem, Magic, Bird and everyone else from the 70's and 80's.

Here, here are some nice stats for you

Kareem in his 2nd year had his 2nd best statistical season ever and averaged 31.7 ppg and 16 rebounds.
That very same year Wilt was clearly on a decline and he wasn't a player he once was, he was probably around 35 or so years old and he still averaged 27.3 ppg and 18.4 rebounds which is on par with Kareem's 2nd best statistical season ever.
That tells you nothing?

It tells me that Kareem would have had even better stats if he had played during the peak of Wilt's era... Also, Wilt's wasn't so much a physical decline as much as it was a statistical decline because of the changing game.

Also, during his "decline," Wilt was averaging 44.3 minutes a game. And, Wilt only averaged 20.7 in 70-71 when Kareem averaged 31.7.
MaxFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:43 PM   #10
saKf
Roy = my new fave.
 
saKf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Not offended by low scores.
Posts: 4,206
saKf is a pretty well-respected postersaKf is a pretty well-respected postersaKf is a pretty well-respected postersaKf is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

I like how an argument that illegitimizes Chamberlain's accomplishments consists of "he only averaged 18 rebounds that season."

I'm not saying he's GOAT, but many people go too far.
saKf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 12:43 AM   #11
BlackMoses
High school junior varsity star
 
BlackMoses's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 314
BlackMoses has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Nobody ever roots for Goliath
BlackMoses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 01:17 AM   #12
Y2Gezee
Troll spotting pro
 
Y2Gezee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In hell when Im on ISH
Posts: 4,615
Y2Gezee is a pretty well-respected posterY2Gezee is a pretty well-respected posterY2Gezee is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Wilt is a top 10 player and all, and would still be in today's game. But Noway in hell he does those things again in today's game with these big athletic guys, and rule changes. The debate for Greatest center ever in my mind is between Shaq and Kareem and its a hard choice.

My top 5 ever:
1aMagic
1bMichael
then Shaq/Bird/Kareem put them where you'd like.
Y2Gezee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 03:52 AM   #13
Psileas
NBA lottery pick
 
Psileas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Great!
Posts: 5,378
Psileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterPsileas is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Quote:
What you gotta know about Wilt (if you dont already) is that despite being the biggest guy out there and putting up all those crazy numbers at first, Starting about a year after his 50ppg and 45ppg seasons the NBA changed some rules over the next 3 years. They widened the lane by 4 feet, instituted an offensive goaltending rule, added a 3 second defense rule, outlawed the inbound pass over the backboard, and outlawed his leaping from the foul line to get closer to the rim on free-throw attempts. The results? He went from 50ppg and 45ppg to 37ppg 35ppg 34ppg and down to 24ppg and worse after the last rule changes were made in 1966-1967.

What eliteballer posted pretty much nullifies most of this. 3 seconds existed way before Wilt. Just think about it: What would the widening of the lane serve if they didn't exist (and it wasn't even the first one. The first occured in Mikan's era)?

Wilt and his coaches realized that it wouldn't serve the team to have one player (even the GOAT) take that many shots. As time went by, Wilt became a better team player.
And of course, you omitted the fact that when he went down to 24.1 ppg, his FG percentage skyrocketed to 68.3%.

Quote:
His rebounds also went down steadily from 24 to 18 as well.....and his FT% went down about 20%.

Slower game in the 70's, less possessions, advancing age. What's so shocking about it? He still led the league in 1973, almost at 37. You know, like Shaq does now, at 35...:)

Quote:
I don't think they changed it because he was so good, he was just simply taking advantage of the situation and these were great rules that are still being used today.

Nice spin. How come nobody else took advantage of the different rules (which, like elite showed, weren't that different? Maybe because he WAS that good? And how come no major rules changed till now? Maybe because there hasn't existed any player since to set the bar a level higher?

Quote:
Add his godawful 22ppg avg and only 2 rings then this is where the Myth should well and truly get busted.

His "godawful" 22 ppg (which is 23, actually, if you round it) is less than 1.5 ppg less than Larry Bird's and his rings are only 1 less. Not to mention that during his low scoring years, he played twice as many playoff games, which brought his averages down.
He also has led his teams in the Finals as many times as Jordan has, while facing for 10 years the biggest dynasty ever.

Quote:
Playing against Shaq, Olajuwan, Ewing, Mourning, Robinson, Mutombo....etc etc etc all big solid Centers in their prime, not small ok 6-9 Centers (more like blown up power forwards). Wilt might get his **** pushed in........ He's still an all-time great but I wish people would fess up and admit his great early games and seasons were strictly due to the awful rules at the time and inferior competition.

Russell, Thurmond, Unseld, Kareem, Lanier, Willis Reed, Bellamy, etc...Some of whom he faced at an advanced age and could still outplay. Note that the fact that there were less teams meant that he'd face them more times than Shaq would face Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Zo.
Now, since, we've been talking about weak competition, can you tell me how many elite SG's Jordan faced?
Psileas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 04:10 AM   #14
Shep
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,560
Shep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: The Facts that should end all the talk as Wilt as GOAT or anywhere near

Quote:
Originally Posted by DØN
Wilt's place in history?

1.Jordan
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
mmm..close but

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
Shep is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:48 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy