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Old 06-24-2014, 12:29 AM   #91
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by Droid101
I never said that Duncan NEVER played PF. He did, his first few years, when he was along side Robinson.

Starting in the mid-2000's, he was playing Center most of the time. Guarding the opposing center, and the opposing center guarding him.

So, most of his career was playing Center, that's all I'm saying.

true.. I agree. I just see this as a cop out argument with some people.. ie saying duncans the 5th best center ever lol.. yea he wasnt a peak level center 05 through now but before that he played PF the best anyone ever has.. its whatever

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Old 06-24-2014, 12:56 AM   #92
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by Droid101
Kareem >>>> Tim Duncan
Toss up. But Tim's superior defense and rebounding makes him more important on a team. He is also a way better passer. Kareem was a bit robotic.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:12 AM   #93
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by rmt
Don't see why the knock on Duncan because he can play both positions. It gives the Spurs great flexibility on which big men they can bring in. He can play with any big man and with the exception of Splitter, they're almost always CHEAP. If he's playing with Rasho, Nazr, Oberto, Elson, Blair, Kurt Thomas, Ayres, Baynes and Splitter, he's a PF offensively. If he's playing with Horry, Bonner, McDyess, Rose, Diaw, and Daye, he's a C offensively. Defensively, he's a C these days but in his prime, DRob guarded the centers (like Shaq) and TD the PFs (like Horry).

But if KG and Bosh are playing Center nowadays, what objection can you have with Duncan as a Center. The league has changed to smaller, faster, more jump shooting centers. Never seen some one knocked so just because he has variety and flexibility.

It is not a knock obviously – Pau Gasol, Sheed Wallace, and Garnett were also PF/C's– but clearly posters w/ an agenda would like to make it seem like Duncan is the most out of place power forward ever (lol). He was really a pure center next to lumbering, no range Rasho Nesterovic and Tiago Splitter lol. And it's ironic because this is coming from a board that thinks Dirk Nowitzki has basically revolutionized the power forward position or something.. (even though bigs like Barkley, Horry, Walker, etc., were shooting three's in the 90's too)... and I'm not personally denying Dirk's impact in a multitude of ways (that is not the point), the point is it is indeed ironic Duncan is singled out as "not a power forward" when in reality his game at his physical prime mirrored a blend of Karl Malone and Kevin McHale in many many ways, much more than it mirrored a Shaq or Dwight Howard or Alonzo Mourning and such.

Even in the 2007 Finals... about 10 years into Duncan's career, and 4 years of college ball... Duncan and Drew Gooden covered each other on both ends at the start of every game, and slow ass Oberto and Ilguaskas covered each other (matchups switched up through out the game). Duncan's athleticism and quickness started to slip gradually, Pop fell in love with Matt Bonner as a stretch-4, and good centers in the NBA were costly (most expensive position in basketball?). Spurs were rumored to be after Alonzo Mourning in the mid 2000's but they got Rasho instead. They finally landed Splitter (a known international center), after years of turmoil... from trying to groom Ian Mahinmi, to trading Scola for Jackie Butler, to pushing old Antonio McDyess to center
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:20 AM   #94
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by Big#50
Toss up. But Tim's superior defense and rebounding makes him more important on a team. He is also a way better passer. Kareem was a bit robotic.

Kareem has 3000+ more rebounds than Duncan and more steals.. Duncan has more blocks but never averaged more than 2.9 per game whereas Kareem has seasons of 4.1 and 4.0 per game and several over 3

also note that for Kareem's first 4 seasons they didn't keep block or steal stats

Kareem also has 5660 assists to Duncans 3832

I watched Kareem and I've watched Duncan and you are seriously underrating Kareem and overrating Duncan in these catergories

Head to head Kareem would dominate Duncan just like he did pretty much every other big man in his career
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:30 AM   #95
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by gts
Kareem has 3000+ more rebounds than Duncan and more steals.. Duncan has more blocks but never averaged more than 2.9 per game whereas Kareem has seasons of 4.1 and 4.0 per game and several over 3

also note that for Kareem's first 4 seasons they didn't keep block or steal stats

Kareem also has 5660 assists to Duncans 3832

I watched Kareem and I've watched Duncan and you are seriously underrating Kareem and overrating Duncan in these catergories

Head to head Kareem would dominate Duncan just like he did pretty much every other big man in his career
Yeah but the 80's and 70's stats are inflated as ****. If Duncan could keep Shaq out of the paint with his loeer base strength at times. I have to think he could keep KAJ from his comfort spot for the hooks and push him further out. I started watching basketball in 88. So I did not see KAJ in his prime. But ive seen at least 50 total games from him. Prime and out of his prime. Duncan is very underrated historically, only because of his stats not being as good. Stats are overrated.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:32 AM   #96
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by Big#50
Yeah but the 80's and 70's stats are inflated
Stopped reading right there.. agenda detected
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:32 AM   #97
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
Barkley's best seasons were ones where he started at SF.

The centers were Mike Gminski and Charles Shackleford and the PFs were Armon Gilliam and Rick Mahorn.

Kids on here always try to argue this point, but Chuck was my favorite player growing up, we had a satellite dish and I watched a ton of Sixer games.
People forget how quick he was even when he was a fat **** early in his career.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:40 AM   #98
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

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Originally Posted by gts
Stopped reading right there.. agenda detected
really? LAKERS pace from 75 to 88 was an average of 103.
Spurs from 97 to 2014 is 90.
13 extra possessions is a lot. But I have no problem with KAJ being ahead. At one point I had him as the GOAT. My list of course means jack shit.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:42 AM   #99
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

If you honestly think Duncan is better than Kareem... lel

That's like saying Kobe is better than Jordan. You kids should know better by now.
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:06 AM   #100
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

Tim Duncan is the best Power Forward even when playing center.
That's how good he is, now **** off
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:18 AM   #101
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

Finally Duncan is being exposed. Anyone remember KG slapping that dude up and Duncan quaking in fear? From that point on he couldn't handle KG or Dirk so moved to the C spot. In which case, he is behind

Kareem, Russell, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Moses, Parish, Zo and maybe even Willis Reed.

Whoever posted this I applaud you
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:25 AM   #102
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

dude is a pf man. Most 4 play the 5 vice versa
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:13 AM   #103
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
Kareem has 3000+ more rebounds than Duncan and more steals.. Duncan has more blocks but never averaged more than 2.9 per game whereas Kareem has seasons of 4.1 and 4.0 per game and several over 3

also note that for Kareem's first 4 seasons they didn't keep block or steal stats

Kareem also has 5660 assists to Duncans 3832

I watched Kareem and I've watched Duncan and you are seriously underrating Kareem and overrating Duncan in these catergories

Head to head Kareem would dominate Duncan just like he did pretty much every other big man in his career

Kareem is not a better rebounder. KAJ has a career 15.7% total rebound percentage. Duncan, in comparison, has a career 18.5% TRB. It's very telling that KAJ's rebounding numbers fell off a cliff when the 80s rolled around. Usually good rebounders will continue to be good rebounders, even late in their careers. Not the case for Jabar. He put up respectable rebounding numbers when the league was in it's weakest era and proceeded to drop off in the 80s when there was more talent.

For example, KAJ at age 28 had an excellent 19.6% TRB. KAJ at age 38 had a very low 10.3% TRB.

Duncan at age 28 had a 19.4% TRB. Duncan at age 38 had a 18.8% TRB.

All the great rebounders(Barkley, Rodman, etc) in NBA history maintained their rebounding percentages late into their careers. Kareem didn't. Leads me to believe he was an average rebounder for his position.

As for passing. KAJ sits at a 14.6% career Assist Percentage. Duncan is at 16.4% career Assist Percentage.

Blocking? KAJ is a career 3.8% Block Percentage. Duncan is at 4.6% career Block Percentage.

Also, Duncan is one of the best defenders in NBA history. Kareem is possibly top 15 but still nowhere in Russell, Eaton, Ewing, Garnett, Duncan, or Robinson's class.

I will give you scoring. KAJ is probably the greatest of all-time scoring big man. Only Shaq has an argument with him in that category.

Last edited by Artillery : 06-24-2014 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:40 AM   #104
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
Barkley is probably the GOAT PF.

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Old 06-24-2014, 07:00 AM   #105
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Default Re: Tim Duncan according to basketball-reference

According to bball-reference Tim Duncan has spent nearly half of his career as a C and the other half as a PF.


In other words, prime Duncan is a PF.


(1997/98 - 2005/06) -> GOAT PF
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Quote:
Yeah but the 80's and 70's stats are inflated

1) the primary scoring option's usage percentage fluctuates within a narrow-band (25% - 30%).

With a few rare exceptions (Michael Jordan), usage percentages around 35% are detrimental to the team because the efficiency decreases as the usage increases and the other players don't feel involved.


2) However,the pace factor has wild fluctuations.


As you can see, peak Shaq has underwhelming statistics.




We need to distinguish between 1) players whose stats are inflated by pace,

and 2) players whose stats are the result of a combination of high usage + high efficiency.



Per 100 Team poss. is the best tool available (make sure they play a lot of minutes)


Duncan vs Kareem

- Kareem's first four seasons are not available.

- Both players deserve the utmost respect.

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