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Old 03-14-2007, 11:22 AM   #31
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

I'm trying to figure out if the Heat have any more road games left this season.

If Shaq can play at 80-85% of what he was in his prime than he's more important than Wade clearly. Shaq is no doubt a top 5 player of the last 25 years, while Wade is only arguably a top 5 player this year. I don't think Shaq can sustain that level of play for long stretches (his play has already dropped off the last couple of games), so for the long haul Wade is probably more important (but Shaq can still become more important in a given game or stetch of games).

Another point to keep in mind is that when a team loses a bulk shooting wing man (like Lebron, Kobe, or Wade) they tend to form a bunker mentality and play well for a short stretch. The primary reason is that more role players get more shots, which they love, but reality sinks in after a while and they tend to plateau.

My thoughts on this are: the Heat were not going to be good in the first half of the season no matter what (with or without Shaq), they were going to try and turn it around in the second half from the get go since they have old legs and don't care about the regular season, they are taking advantage of a long homestand to spring board them, and Shaq is well rested and playing with some emotion. But is this stretch better than the stretch when the Heat were 9-1 without Shaq prior to the all star break? Maybe, but we're looking at a short snapshot of the season.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:28 AM   #32
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
Hey man you can deny the facts. Shaq been better at carrying a team BY HIMSELF. And I think without wades "special treatment" he would not even be close to LeBrons level.

And to your other "point" about winning without Dwyane Wade? I would say put any top tier sg in place and you'll prob. have the same results.

SHAQ is the man.

Wade's "special treatment" is a figment of ******' imaginations, so I'm not even going to bother with that. Anyone who thinks you average 28ppg, 8asst, 5rb, block and a couple of steals per game on 49% shooting soley from "special treatment" really doesn't deserve to discuss basketball.

You can say that, but it was Dwyane Wade who won Finals MVP and did all he did last year, not any other top tier sg. You may have a point if he was still second fiddle ala Kobe, but he was the one that did all the heavy lifting. Shaq averaged, what, 12ppg in the Finals last year? Contrast that to what he averaged in the playoffs during the LA days. No comparison.

Shaq is still an very important part of the Heat, but you're trying to pretend that Wade is not the MVP of the team at this time and that's flat out false, and probably because you dislike Wade, not because you have any sort of intelligent comments
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

How can anyone have watched the Finals and thought Shaq was more important than Wade? He had 5 and 9 point games, people. Antoine Walker was scoring more points. Shaq's a legend and all, and still commands a lot of respect and attention from the D, but Wade was clearly the Heat's MVP, that's why he wan the award.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:42 AM   #34
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Aren't they teammates? Chasing a common goal. Another fuggin championship.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:49 AM   #35
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

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Originally Posted by 0ne50
Aren't they teammates? Chasing a common goal. Another fuggin championship.

Thank you. Why is this a debate? As if there ill will between the two type Kobe/Shaq in the past...

I think we all can come to the conclusion by a general consensus that...

...Dwyane Wade is the Heat "best" player(talent package, stats wise, go to guy in clutch, etc)...But Shaq STILL at this point is still more impactful with the defensive attention that he draws today... He's still a coaches nightmare in terms of how they prepare to guard him defensivly...And when he is inspired and motivated (which he is now) he'll sure as hell give you those vintage Shaq games every now and then...Shaq brings the dynamics to the table in which makes the Heat a championship team.

It should be ended there...

Last edited by BFRESH44 : 03-14-2007 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:54 AM   #36
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamRockets
of course not, go check his nba.com link, the guy is averaging 16 ppg and 7 rebounds, he barely scored 20 points, rebounds in double figures or blocks more than 2 shots p/game anymore.


It's this kind of logic that made people say "Duncan sucks he only averages 19 and 9 now" or "Tony Parker is more valuable than Duncan". (Yes, these threads did exist last season, many were hating on Duncan for his lowered stats)

Shaq's 16 and 7 is more valuable than one of Jamal Crawford's 40 point "explosions". Shaq, like Duncan, and Nash, are far more valuable than their stats. Don't always buy into stats, guy. If we go by your logic, Shaq isn't even as good as Memo Okur then.
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Old 03-14-2007, 11:58 AM   #37
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
It's this kind of logic that made people say "Duncan sucks he only averages 19 and 9 now" or "Tony Parker is more valuable than Duncan". (Yes, these threads did exist last season, many were hating on Duncan for his lowered stats)

Shaq's 16 and 7 is more valuable than one of Jamal Crawford's 40 point "explosions". Shaq, like Duncan, and Nash, are far more valuable than their stats. Don't always buy into stats, guy. If we go by your logic, Shaq isn't even as good as Memo Okur then.

no sorry, i've been watching shaq since his LSU years since i've always liked his game and he has clearly lost a step, he is, at best, half the player he was in his lakers years, to make the comparison with duncan is ridiculous, duncan is still dominant and the best player in his team, shaq isn't.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:17 PM   #38
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamRockets
no sorry, i've been watching shaq since his LSU years since i've always liked his game and he has clearly lost a step, he is, at best, half the player he was in his lakers years, to make the comparison with duncan is ridiculous, duncan is still dominant and the best player in his team, shaq isn't.


WTF are you talking about? I didn't compare Shaq to Duncan in the Shaq vs Duncan sense. I am saying Shaq is FAR MORE VALUABLE than his stats, which was to COUNTER YOUR FLAWED argument that Shaq's not better than Wade right now because he only averages 16 and 7.

No SH*T Sherlock Shaq isn't what he used to be. But a 16 and 7 Shaq is still more valuable to a team than 85% to 90% of the league.

I mentioend Duncan because Duncan is like Shaq, in the sense that they are FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN THEIR STATS because they command double teams, throws the opponent's defense off, sets up teammates for EASY buckets, even when they're not scoring, they're strong enough a decoy that suddenly gusy like Damon Jones would become a legit threat.

Then there's someone like Jamal Crawford, Stephon Marbury, or Larry Hughes, they are probably worse than their stats because of their bad shot selections, costly turnovers, gambling on defense, and dumb ass me-first play in general.

I always say this, one of Duncan's 17 and 10 games is probably more valuable than one of "starbury's" 30 point nights. Just like I said, Shaq's 16 and 7+his presence+his ability to free his teammates up makes him still oneof the more valuable pieces to a winning team.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:55 PM   #39
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
WTF are you talking about? I didn't compare Shaq to Duncan in the Shaq vs Duncan sense. I am saying Shaq is FAR MORE VALUABLE than his stats, which was to COUNTER YOUR FLAWED argument that Shaq's not better than Wade right now because he only averages 16 and 7.

No SH*T Sherlock Shaq isn't what he used to be. But a 16 and 7 Shaq is still more valuable to a team than 85% to 90% of the league.

I mentioend Duncan because Duncan is like Shaq, in the sense that they are FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN THEIR STATS because they command double teams, throws the opponent's defense off, sets up teammates for EASY buckets, even when they're not scoring, they're strong enough a decoy that suddenly gusy like Damon Jones would become a legit threat.

Then there's someone like Jamal Crawford, Stephon Marbury, or Larry Hughes, they are probably worse than their stats because of their bad shot selections, costly turnovers, gambling on defense, and dumb ass me-first play in general.

I always say this, one of Duncan's 17 and 10 games is probably more valuable than one of "starbury's" 30 point nights. Just like I said, Shaq's 16 and 7+his presence+his ability to free his teammates up makes him still oneof the more valuable pieces to a winning team.



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Old 03-14-2007, 12:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoe Itawl
Wade's "special treatment" is a figment of ******' imaginations, so I'm not even going to bother with that. Anyone who thinks you average 28ppg, 8asst, 5rb, block and a couple of steals per game on 49% shooting soley from "special treatment" really doesn't deserve to discuss basketball.

You can say that, but it was Dwyane Wade who won Finals MVP and did all he did last year, not any other top tier sg. You may have a point if he was still second fiddle ala Kobe, but he was the one that did all the heavy lifting. Shaq averaged, what, 12ppg in the Finals last year? Contrast that to what he averaged in the playoffs during the LA days. No comparison.

Shaq is still an very important part of the Heat, but you're trying to pretend that Wade is not the MVP of the team at this time and that's flat out false, and probably because you dislike Wade, not because you have any sort of intelligent comments

In the finals Dwade shot too many fts. If you don't agree. You are biased and a *******.

That doesn't take away his ring and it never will but heres what I think. Even tho shaq only averaged limited points or whatever doesn't mean wade would have won without him. I still think if you take any top 10 guard. They should be able to have a similar result. But wade without another allstar is not impressive. LeBron is. Kobe is he didn't even have a half decent player last year and he almost got the suns.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
WTF are you talking about? I didn't compare Shaq to Duncan in the Shaq vs Duncan sense. I am saying Shaq is FAR MORE VALUABLE than his stats, which was to COUNTER YOUR FLAWED argument that Shaq's not better than Wade right now because he only averages 16 and 7.

No SH*T Sherlock Shaq isn't what he used to be. But a 16 and 7 Shaq is still more valuable to a team than 85% to 90% of the league.

I mentioend Duncan because Duncan is like Shaq, in the sense that they are FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN THEIR STATS because they command double teams, throws the opponent's defense off, sets up teammates for EASY buckets, even when they're not scoring, they're strong enough a decoy that suddenly gusy like Damon Jones would become a legit threat.

Then there's someone like Jamal Crawford, Stephon Marbury, or Larry Hughes, they are probably worse than their stats because of their bad shot selections, costly turnovers, gambling on defense, and dumb ass me-first play in general.

I always say this, one of Duncan's 17 and 10 games is probably more valuable than one of "starbury's" 30 point nights. Just like I said, Shaq's 16 and 7+his presence+his ability to free his teammates up makes him still oneof the more valuable pieces to a winning team.

Thats what I've been trying to say. Expect hughes and steph have been playing better lately :)
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:08 PM   #42
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Shaq's still gotta be considered the best C in the league. His presence obviously means so much.

It should be obvious that he's the driving force behind the Heat, just like it was when he was a Laker. He still won without Kobe too. The Heat without Shaq was an absolute joke, and in the East they still should've been at .500. Now with Shaq and no Wade they're looking like one of the East's elites. Thats no coincidence. And for people to excuse it by saying shaq is playing inspired? Ummm... Its not like he's magically putting up 30 and 15, that would be inspired. He's playing within the offense, giving up the ball, defending and rebounding and in less than 30 minutes often. He just makes people better, and he does that aswell or better than anyone in the league.

If he'd have come back and put up 22 and 11 and they were losing without Wade, people would say "Yeah And....", but he's just going along and winning.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:12 PM   #43
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Shaq isn't the Main scoring option but he is the main man for the heat.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:21 PM   #44
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

Shaq and Duncan are just WINNERS, period. I'm convince you can slap Duncan or Shaq (prime for both) on any lottery team of the past few years, and they'd instantly make playoffs. If you're talking about a team full of talented bluechippers but just stunked, for example, like Atlanta last year, you can throw Duncan or Shaq to that, they would win 52-58 games and go to Conference Finals.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:24 PM   #45
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Default Re: Shaq>wade still?

I know great Big man. Are the key to sucuss.
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