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Old 01-07-2014, 07:46 AM   #31
Element
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Pretty much. In essence Kobe is a carbon copy of Jordan's skill set. He has more willingness to launch the long ball.

Anyone claiming Kobe is more skilled has no clue what they're talking about. Even footwork, Kobe's entire footwork / post game is predicated on Jordan's originality.

Jordan definitely had superior off the ball, as well as catch and shoot skills. MJ had the superior IQ, athletic ability, and even more homicidal level of competitiveness.

Yeah right. Show me some proof. Kobe's always had great footwork. The way they play in the post is very different. Yeah, they both spam the turnaround shot the most, but apart from that? MJ was more of a quick hitting post-up player. He caught the ball and immediately made his move. He used a pump-fake up and under move quite often (Kobe very rarely does this), and he also did spins way more often than Kobe does. Kobe when he posts up almost always has a live dribble going for about 3+ seconds and he does a lot more pivots and running hooks than MJ ever did.

And that second part about competitiveness is just plain made up. Both players, along with guys like Duncan and Bird etc have GOAT level competitiveness. You can't really say "this dude was more competitive".
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:49 AM   #32
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMilkyBarKid
I know for sure that MJ got heavily into weights when he still couldn't get past the pistons. He was looking to add on some muscle so he could better deal with their physicality. I believe that is when he began working with Tim Grover.
So that would've been late 80's/turn of the decade.

Yeah, I remember something being said about that as well. I would have to find the video where Jordan said that he didn't condition himself as good during his 1st three peat compared to his 2nd one tho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezy
I see the Long range shooting but I honestly don't get the footwork and ball handling advantage some people think kobe has. At best I see it as a push.

Am I crazy?!?!?!

Kobe was more fancier and like A.I, he brought street ball handling more into the NBA. Jordan was more efficient and quicker to the point. He could also cross you up tho.

Footwork is a different story. Kobe could do all the things Jordan could do, but Jordan was quicker, which probably gives him the edge imo.

Look at how quick Jordan made his move that throws the defense off guard, especially on the shimmy fadeaways:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAUtrCCKJuo

Look at Kobe footwork while similar, just not as quick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpuswrs-Svg


Both know where to place their pivot foot to fake out their opponents. Jordan was quicker. Not only with his footwork, but quicker in attacking and making his move. Jordan had a better up and under move due to his quickness imo. Kobe takes his time. Kobe could be more creative in his approach.

But you can find more videos that show more examples of the two footwork.

Last edited by Micku : 01-07-2014 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Kobe is not "more skilled" than Jordan at all. The ONLY area where he comes close is footwork, and isolation handles, where he has the edge on Jordan (not isolation scoring, though, because there's more to that than just handles).

Jordan absolutely SHITS on Kobe as an off the ball player, and he knew how to use defenders' momentum, find gaps in the defense, and use his teammates' positions in ways that Kobe has never demonstrated. He was a brilliant offensive ball player on a level beyond Kobe. He was also the better post player (lol @ anyone thinking Kobe's a better post player ) , rebounder (by a good margin), passer/playmaker, and defender (especially team/help/off ball defense, where he DESTROYS Kobe - he had the best understanding of defensive spacing ever - I didn't say that, Chuck Daly did).
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:30 AM   #34
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

I would agree. Kobe's game has more finesse and Jordan's has more athleticism.
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:42 AM   #35
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

I would say they are equals in terms of skill with Jordan being overall better because of his athletic advantage.

Kobe probably had better footwork than MJ as well as more moves to his arsenal, but the way MJ finished was an artform and a skill you can't really teach.
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:57 AM   #36
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Even as a Kobe hater I've always said this. I watched both of them play. Kobe copied MJ's game, but he also got to see which things to work on and he was able to pull from other greats playing at the same time as MJ.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Pretty much. In essence Kobe is a carbon copy of Jordan's skill set. He has more willingness to launch the long ball.

Anyone claiming Kobe is more skilled has no clue what they're talking about. Even footwork, Kobe's entire footwork / post game is predicated on Jordan's originality.

Jordan definitely had superior off the ball, as well as catch and shoot skills. MJ had the superior IQ, athletic ability, and even more homicidal level of competitiveness.


First off you claimed Julius Erving was not very skilled outside of dunking. Second you claim Jordan was a great 3 point shooter based on a miniscule sample size.
Third you are so far up Jordan hiney you'd probably say Shaq learned to dominate in the paint watching Jordan.

You are the last person to judge someones "skill set" so STFU
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:14 PM   #38
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHeezy
First off you claimed Julius Erving was not very skilled outside of dunking. Second you claim Jordan was a great 3 point shooter based on a miniscule sample size.
Third you are so far up Jordan hiney you'd probably say Shaq learned to dominate in the paint watching Jordan.

You are the last person to judge someones "skill set" so STFU

While I don't agree with what he said either, he's not too far off. Dr. J didn't really have a consistent shot because he thought he never had the need to develop one. He drove to the basket so easily.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:27 PM   #39
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Pretty much. In essence Kobe is a carbon copy of Jordan's skill set. He has more willingness to launch the long ball.

Anyone claiming Kobe is more skilled has no clue what they're talking about. Even footwork, Kobe's entire footwork / post game is predicated on Jordan's originality.

Jordan definitely had superior off the ball, as well as catch and shoot skills. MJ had the superior IQ, athletic ability, and even more homicidal level of competitiveness.

we gonna act like Jordan didn't learn from his predecessors?

that's what progress is, a process of duplicating and innovating. Kobe's game is not identical to jordans, it's tailored to his lesser athleticism and utilizes ballhandling and 3 ball far more. Also had to take the playmaking duty far more than jordan had to under pHil

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
Kobe is not "more skilled" than Jordan at all. The ONLY area where he comes close is footwork, and isolation handles, where he has the edge on Jordan (not isolation scoring, though, because there's more to that than just handles).

Jordan absolutely SHITS on Kobe as an off the ball player, and he knew how to use defenders' momentum, find gaps in the defense, and use his teammates' positions in ways that Kobe has never demonstrated. He was a brilliant offensive ball player on a level beyond Kobe. He was also the better post player (lol @ anyone thinking Kobe's a better post player ) , rebounder (by a good margin), passer/playmaker, and defender (especially team/help/off ball defense, where he DESTROYS Kobe - he had the best understanding of defensive spacing ever - I didn't say that, Chuck Daly did).

the myth of Jordan's better off ball movement is borne out of the absolute absence of team and systematic defense in the 80s and early 90s

defense in those days were predicated on great personnel, not schemes or zone

Last edited by STATUTORY : 01-07-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:29 PM   #40
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Lol at Jordan stans itt. I mean, I'm one myself but you guys are taking it to the extreme.

Here's what Kobe's more skilled at:

- Isolation handles. Easily. He played in the And-1 era, it comes by default.
- Shot-making. Any point in denying this?
- Long-rage shooting. Higher 3P% with longer line, higher volume, worse shot selection. Lol.


Arguable:

- Footwork. Both players had GOAT level footwork.
- Post-up game. We do NOT know Jordan's post-up numbers. What we do know are Kobe's post up numbers. Chew on this: Via Synergy, he has been top 3 in post-up points per shot every year since he started implementing it (08). He has consistently shot around high 50's-60 FG% from the post.

What makes MJ's post game more "famous" is the fact that in his era, clearing a side was no biggie. As easy as making a layup in practice if you had a team like the Bulls. Dude could ISO all day. In Kobe's era however...lol. GL trying to get MJ that many post ups in today's era lol.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:50 PM   #41
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by STATUTORY
the myth of Jordan's better off ball movement is borne out of the absolute absence of team and systematic defense in the 80s and early 90s

defense in those days were predicated on great personnel, not schemes or zone

Nonsense. Jordan was shitting on Kobe as an off the ball player in 2003 also at 40 years old. The so-called "greatest defensive era ever."

Kobe's off-ball game was nowhere near as good as Jordan's prior to 2007 anyway (not sure when you'd say that the "modern era" started). So a 26-28 year old Kobe didn't display anywhere near the off ball game that a 26-28 year old MJ did, or even that a 40 year old MJ did a few years prior. Give me a break.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:56 PM   #42
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Jordan is 100x more clutch tho
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element
Lol at Jordan stans itt. I mean, I'm one myself but you guys are taking it to the extreme.

Here's what Kobe's more skilled at:

- Isolation handles. Easily. He played in the And-1 era, it comes by default.
- Shot-making. Any point in denying this?
- Long-rage shooting. Higher 3P% with longer line, higher volume, worse shot selection. Lol.


Arguable:

- Footwork. Both players had GOAT level footwork.
- Post-up game. We do NOT know Jordan's post-up numbers. What we do know are Kobe's post up numbers. Chew on this: Via Synergy, he has been top 3 in post-up points per shot every year since he started implementing it (08). He has consistently shot around high 50's-60 FG% from the post.

What makes MJ's post game more "famous" is the fact that in his era, clearing a side was no biggie. As easy as making a layup in practice if you had a team like the Bulls. Dude could ISO all day. In Kobe's era however...lol. GL trying to get MJ that many post ups in today's era lol.


yes

kobe is only better at shot taking but not shot making. what you're seeing is just an illusion. kobe does his fancy dribbles, jukes and jives, creates space, puts up a good looking shot, but bricks. up until that point you can say that kobe is better but after that, the most important part which is actually putting the ball in the basket, jordan takes the cake.

but thats just in the midrange game. when it comes to making shots around the basket, its jordan no contest, taking and making. the hangtime, the leaners, the mid air improv, the creativity in avoiding ourstretched arms. kobe's got nothing on that.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:38 PM   #44
Element
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

Quote:
Originally Posted by f0und
yes

kobe is only better at shot taking but not shot making. what you're seeing is just an illusion. kobe does his fancy dribbles, jukes and jives, creates space, puts up a good looking shot, but bricks. up until that point you can say that kobe is better but after that, the most important part which is actually putting the ball in the basket, jordan takes the cake.

but thats just in the midrange game. when it comes to making shots around the basket, its jordan no contest, taking and making. the hangtime, the leaners, the mid air improv, the creativity in avoiding ourstretched arms. kobe's got nothing on that.

Shot-making is considered the art of making tough shots. No one's better at that than Kobe. MJ had more seperation on his fadeaways and jump shots due to his superior athleticisim.

This is what I'm talking about:

http://youtu.be/SpWAyV-S7P0?t=4m57s
http://youtu.be/CwWQTGJPzzY?t=3m16s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgwdlK06Evw

I agree that MJ is clearly the better finisher, though. People went to his games to watch him pull off circus layups, not spinning fadeaways over a double team.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:35 PM   #45
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Default Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"

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