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Old 01-13-2014, 01:18 AM   #106
LAZERUSS
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by julizaver
Maybe you haven't seen my earlier post. Taken into consideration your 66-67 calculation I could repost:

How Nate shot vs Russell, Kareem and Wilt ?

vs Russell - 19,6 ppg on 0.409
vs Kareem - 18.6 ppg on 0.413
vs Wilt - 16.3 ppg on 0.382

And how the others shot against him ?

Kareem vs Nate - 24.76 ppg on 0.447
Wilt vs Nate - 14.84 ppg on 0.548
Russell vs Nate - 11.59 ppg on 4.34

The data covers the 1965-1973 period. The data for Wilt vs Nate and Russell vs Nate is still incomplete (but I have the majority of the games data).

Thanks again, Julizaver.

Dankok8 keeps mentioning Wilt and Nate's 67-68 H2H's, as if Thurmond were just waxing Chamberlain. So, I looked up their FOUR H2H games:

1.
Nate: 11 pts, 33 rebs
Wilt: 1 pt., 18 rebs, 13 ast, and get this 0-0 FG/FGA

2.
Nate: 18 pts, 26 rebs
Wilt: 20 pts, 27 rebs, 4 ast, 8-18 FG/FGA

3.
Nate: 13 pts, 25 rebs
Wilt: 12 pts, 23 rebs, 4 ast, 3-11 FG/FGA

4.
Nate: 18 pts, 23 rebs
Wilt: 20 pts, 27 rebs, 7 ast, 8/? FG/FGA


So, this was supposed to be some kind of major beatdown from Nate? First of all, we don't have any of Thurmond's FG%'s, and historically, he shot way less than 40% against Wilt. And just the season before in 12 H2H's with Wilt he shot about .335. So, there was a very good chance that he was shooting horribly against him in 67-68, too.

Then, as always, he uses a very small sampling as some kind of examples. Here again, we only have two of their NINE H2H's from 65-66, and in those two Wilt shot 8-22 and 17-32, or a total of .463. So, he assumes that Chamberlain, in a season in which he was routinely dumping 30+ points on Nate, would have only shot .463 in those NINE games.

For instance, in their 3 H2H's in the 64-65 season, Chamberlain had games of 22 points, on 9-17 shooting; 24 points, on 7-21 shooting; and then 34 on 13-20 shooting...or a combined 26.7 ppg on .500 shooting. Now, how many times in their MANY H2H games did Wilt shoot something 7-21 against Nate? Obviously that was an aberration.

Then, in the 66-67 season, we now know that in six regular season H2H's, Chamberlain averaged 20.8 ppg on an unfathomable .633 FG% (while holding Nate to 13.0 ppg on a .327 FG%.) And again, in the Finals, covering six H2H's, Chamberlain outscored Nate, per game, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg, and outshot Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin. (BTW, the Wilt-bashers would use this as an example of Wilt's decline in the post-season.)

So, all we have to go by in that 67-68 season were one game in which Chamberlain didn't even attempt a shot, and another, in which he scored 20 points, we don't have any FG% data. So, he uses the two examples, in which Wilt collectively shot 11-29, and claims that Thurmond held him a .379 FG%.

In any case, Wilt had the two highest scoring games in those H2H's, and went 2-2 in their rebounding battles (albeit Nate outrebounded in total by a 107-86 margin.)

All of which got me thinking. Just how bad did Wilt shoot over the course of the rest of their H2H's?

Here we go:

68-69 regular season: 6 games
Chamberlain averaged 13.8 ppg on a .547 FG%.

68-69 playoffs: 6 games
Wilt averaged 12.0 ppg on a .500 FG%
(Nate averaged 16.7 ppg on a .392 FG% BTW)

70-71 regular season: 6 games
Wilt averaged 10.2 ppg on a .553 FG%

71-72 regular season: 6 games
Wilt averaged 6.8 ppg on a .731 FG%

72-73 regular season: 6 games
Wilt averaged 6.0 ppg on a .722 FG%

72-73 playoffs: 5 games:
Wilt averaged 7.0 ppg on a .611 FG%
(Nate averaged 15.8 ppg on a .373 FG%.)

I just hold out a glimmer of hope that more info will turn up regarding their missing seven games from their 65-66 H2H's. Oh, and it would great if we had more of Nate's FG%'s, as well (and thanks for posting Nate's three known H2H's from that 65-66 season, as well.)

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 01-13-2014 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:49 AM   #107
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

LAZERUSS please don't misquote me.

I did say Nate outplayed Wilt during entirety of the 67-68 season and that's a fact.

For 65-66 I didn't say Wilt shot 46.3% for all 9 games. I simply said if we reasonably assume he took 20 shots per game in the remaining 7 games that would put him at 47.9%. And therefore I have doubts that he shot a great % in 65-66. Of course I can't be sure but I think so.

And when Wilt shot very high %'s against Nate from '69 onwards it was always on very small numbers of shots.

You persistently compare Wilt's FG% when he takes 5 shots a game to Kareem's FG% when he takes 25 shots a game. You consistently cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore games where Wilt struggles. It's also clear that you're not willing to admit that Wilt ever did anything wrong.

I on the other hand SHARE ALL NUMBERS and then simply post my view. That allows other people to take a look and form their own conclusions. And I try to be as unbiased as possible. Kareem (who isn't even my fave player or anything like that by the way...) has had plenty of crappy games and even entire series.
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:01 AM   #108
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankok8
LAZERUSS please don't misquote me.

I did say Nate outplayed Wilt during entirety of the 67-68 season and that's a fact.

For 65-66 I didn't say Wilt shot 46.3% for all 9 games. I simply said if we reasonably assume he took 20 shots per game in the remaining 7 games that would put him at 47.9%. And therefore I have doubts that he shot a great % in 65-66. Of course I can't be sure but I think so.

And when Wilt shot very high %'s against Nate from '69 onwards it was always on very small numbers of shots.

You persistently compare Wilt's FG% when he takes 5 shots a game to Kareem's FG% when he takes 25 shots a game. You consistently cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore games where Wilt struggles. It's also clear that you're not willing to admit that Wilt ever did anything wrong.

I on the other hand SHARE ALL NUMBERS and then simply post my view. That allows other people to take a look and form their own conclusions. And I try to be as unbiased as possible. Kareem (who isn't even my fave player or anything like that by the way...) has had plenty of crappy games and even entire series.

Sorry. I apologize.

You are certainly one of the more knowledgeable posters here, and you do a great job of researching your your opinions.

Look, I have KAJ very high on my all-time list (#5...and I can see him even being considered a GOAT.) In fact, I have long maintained that his 69-70 post-season; his entire 70-71 season, including playoffs ; and his entire 71-72 regular season, were one of the greatest PEAKS in NBA history.

My problem with Kareem was that, after that, for whatever reasons, he slowly lost the will to get better. Once again, when motivated, he could hang 48-50 point games on Walton (hell, he hung a 50 point game on Wilt), or put up a huge playoff run like his 76-77 post-season; or put up five great games in the '80 Finals, or win a FMVP at age 37. But overall, he SHOULD have been more dominant.

And my other problem with KAJ is that so many here place him on this pedalstal, and ignore his share of flops and failures. But, many of those same posters will continuously trash Chamberlain's career, despite the fact that he seldom had a poor playoff game, much less a series.

And again, I honestly have not seen any research which would put any other center over Wilt's run in the mid-60's. There were very few games in those years, hell, from '60 thru '67 even, in which he was, at least statistically, outplayed. And he was just annihilating his HOF centers beyond recognition. ALL of them. Including the playoffs.

In any case, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

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