Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2014, 09:00 PM   #31
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
So few minutes that he "only" found the time to jack 21 shots (and only make 7 of them)?
Hey, if so, then also remove Wilt's Game 4 of the series vs Kareem, he also played few minutes for his standards. Without that game, Wilt averages 23.8/19.5/2.0 and Kareem 23.5/16.5/4.0.

KAJ never came close to the FGAs per game, that he put up against Chamberlain in those 28 H2H's against anyone else in his career, either. And, he seldom even shot 50% against Wilt in them either (10 games out of 28, with six below .399.) And while Chamberlain has been accused of being a selfish "shot-jacker", I find it fascinating that in KAJ's biggest scoring games against Chamberlain, his team almost always lost, and the more he scored, the worse his team lost.

But here again, 27 of those 28 H2H games came against a 34-36 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee. Here was a prime/peak Kareem struggling against a well-past his peak Chamberlain. We saw what a peak Kareem could do, but we never witnessed what a peak Chamberlain would have dropped on Kareem.
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 09:29 PM   #32
dankok8
I hit open 5-footers
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 288
dankok8 has decent reputationdankok8 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Kareem was never as dominant against his best peers in any of seasons, as a mid-60's Chamberlain was against his. Here again, a peak KAJ was being outplayed by both Wilt and Nate in his 70-71 and 71-72 post-seasons. And McAdoo was outplaying him in many of their H2H's after that, as was Gilmore and Lanier. And, of course, from 78-79 on, Moses just shelled Kareem.

In the '71 postseason Kareem outplayed Nate badly and let's be fair and say his battle against Wilt was a draw.

In the '72 postseason it was pretty much the reverse. It was a draw with Nate and Kareem outplayed Wilt (or at least had a much larger role ).

Mid-60's Wilt really didn't kill his competition that much. In 65-66, 28.6 ppg against Thurmond, 28.3 ppg on 52.1 %FG against Russell, and 33.0 ppg against Bellamy/Reed.

Kareem in 71-72... averaged:

44.8/18.0/4.4 on 57.1% against Cowens
40.2/15.0/5.0 on 50.0% against Wilt
35.4/20.0 against Hayes
34.7/16.4 against Lanier
34.2/18.8 against Unseld
32.0/16.2/4.5 on 61.5% against Haywood
31.3/15.3 against Wicks
29.8/17.8 against Bellamy
24.0/16.3/5.3 on 44.1% against Thurmond

We are missing FG% for some games vs. Hayes, Lanier, Unseld, Wicks, and Bellamy but Kareem seems to have shot at around 60% against these guys.

Kareem from 70-71 to 72-73 just shelled Lanier.

Kareem killed McAdoo on the glass and everywhere other than raw scoring volume in their H2H's. In their 10 encounters from 73-74 to 75-76 where we have rebounds Kareem won 10-0. He also outassisted and outshot Bob in pretty much every game we have the numbers as well!

* - indicates one game missing data

73-74 (3 games)

Kareem: 35.0/16.0/4.0 on 58.0 %FG
McAdoo: 30.3/9.3

74-75 (4 games)

Kareem: 32.0/16.5/6.0* on 57.3 %FG*
McAdoo: 34.3/10.0

75-76 (4 games)

Kareem: 25.8/18.5/7.5 on 57.6 %FG
McAdoo: 32.0/12.3

Against Gilmore he sometimes had problems with foul trouble plus many games were blowouts. When he was on the floor though Kareem dominated Artis too. Easily scored 25+ ppg and on 60%+ shooting.

Quote:
So few minutes that he "only" found the time to jack 21 shots (and only make 7 of them)?
Hey, if so, then also remove Wilt's Game 4 of the series vs Kareem, he also played few minutes for his standards. Without that game, Wilt averages 23.8/19.5/2.0 and Kareem 23.5/16.5/4.0.

My point exactly... Using cumulative stats is misleading. A player with the better line may have just killed the other player in one game and gotten slightly outplayed in all the others.

Last edited by dankok8 : 01-05-2014 at 09:34 PM.
dankok8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 09:39 PM   #33
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankok8
In the '71 postseason Kareem outplayed Nate badly and let's be fair and say his battle against Wilt was a draw.

In the '72 postseason it was pretty much the reverse. It was a draw with Nate and Kareem outplayed Wilt (or at least had a much larger role ).

Mid-60's Wilt really didn't kill his competition that much. In 65-66, 28.6 ppg against Thurmond, 28.3 ppg on 52.1 %FG against Russell, and 33.0 ppg against Bellamy/Reed.

Kareem in 71-72... averaged:

44.8/18.0/4.4 on 57.1% against Cowens
40.2/15.0/5.0 on 50.0% against Wilt
35.4/20.0 against Hayes
34.7/16.4 against Lanier
34.2/18.8 against Unseld
32.0/16.2/4.5 on 61.5% against Haywood
31.3/15.3 against Wicks
29.8/17.8 against Bellamy
24.0/16.3/5.3 on 44.1% against Thurmond

We are missing FG% for some games vs. Hayes, Lanier, Unseld, Wicks, and Bellamy but Kareem seems to have shot at around 60% against these guys.

Kareem from 70-71 to 72-73 just shelled Lanier.

Kareem killed McAdoo on the glass and everywhere other than raw scoring volume in their H2H's. In their 10 encounters from 73-74 to 75-76 where we have rebounds Kareem won 10-0. He also outassisted and outshot Bob in pretty much every game we have the numbers as well!

* - indicates one game missing data

73-74 (3 games)

Kareem: 35.0/16.0/4.0 on 58.0 %FG
McAdoo: 30.3/9.3

74-75 (4 games)

Kareem: 32.0/16.5/6.0* on 57.3 %FG*
McAdoo: 34.3/10.0

75-76 (4 games)

Kareem: 25.8/18.5/7.5 on 57.6 %FG
McAdoo: 32.0/12.3

Against Gilmore he sometimes had problems with foul trouble plus many games were blowouts. When he was on the floor though Kareem dominated Artis too. Easily scored 25+ ppg and on 60%+ shooting.



My point exactly... Using cumulative stats is misleading. A player with the better line may have just killed the other player in one game and gotten slightly outplayed in all the others.

Chamberlain destroyed Russell in the '66 (and '67) post-season (as well as Thurmond in '67...he outscored him in five of the six games; he outrebounded him in five of the six games; he outassisted him in five of the six games; and he outshot him from the field in all six..and overall, by a staggering .560 to .343 margin.). KAJ was outplayed by Wilt in '71, and outplayed by Thurmond in the '72 post-season.

BTW, you love to point out Kareem's edge in rebounding over McAdoo, but you ignore the fact that Moses probably outrebounded KAJ in about 80% of their H2H's, and in many by just unfathomable margins...as well as outscoring him in the vast majority of their H2Hs (especially in their seven post-season H2H's.)

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 01-05-2014 at 10:19 PM.
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 09:49 PM   #34
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

In fact, Chamberlain destroyed his ALL of his peers from '60 thru '67, and was easily more dominant in both '68 and '69 than Russell, Nate, Reed, and Bellamy were in his H2H's with them...including the post-season.
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2014, 04:14 PM   #35
dankok8
I hit open 5-footers
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 288
dankok8 has decent reputationdankok8 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Chamberlain destroyed Russell in the '66 (and '67) post-season (as well as Thurmond in '67...he outscored him in five of the six games; he outrebounded him in five of the six games; he outassisted him in five of the six games; and he outshot him from the field in all six..and overall, by a staggering .560 to .343 margin.). KAJ was outplayed by Wilt in '71, and outplayed by Thurmond in the '72 post-season.

BTW, you love to point out Kareem's edge in rebounding over McAdoo, but you ignore the fact that Moses probably outrebounded KAJ in about 80% of their H2H's, and in many by just unfathomable margins...as well as outscoring him in the vast majority of their H2Hs (especially in their seven post-season H2H's.)

Wilt actually had a pretty terrible series against Russell in '66. Averaged a paltry 23.5 ppg on 48.7% shooting through the first 4 games... Even in his dominant Game 5 he missed 17 free throws in a close game. His Sixers had a better record than the Celtics in the regular season and got killed 4-1.

In Game 2 and Game 4 Russell definitely outplayed him even statistically. Here are the recaps for those two games.

Quote:

1966 EDF

Game 2

Boston won Game 2 114-93 “to take an unexpected 2-0 lead in the series.” “Big Bill Russell, John Havlicek and Sam Jones set the early pace before the Celtics began taking turns at heroics in the romp before a sellout crowd of 13,909 at Boston Garden” (Herald Journal, Apr. 7, 1966). Red Auerbach called it “the best game we played all season.” Auerbach said, “it’s nice to look down the bench and see 11 guys. We haven’t had 11 guys all year. But with everyone healthy, the guys know they don’t have to pace themselves. At times this year the guys had to loaf to pace their game” (Lewington Evening Journal, April 7, 1966). Bill Russell had 10 points, a game-high 29 rebounds, and nine assists to Chamberlain’s 23 points and 25 rebounds. “Chamberlain, just Wednesday voted the NBA’s Most Valuable Player by the U.S. Basketball Writers Association, was overshadowed by the play of Boston’s Bill Russell. Chamberlain outscored Russell 23-10 but the Boston captain had 29 rebounds and nine assists,” in addition to “many steals and blocked shots.” The Celtics lead 58-44 at halftime, and Russell left the game with 2˝ minutes left with the Celtics up 29—110-81, and received a standing ovation for a full minute. Sam Jones led Boston with 23 points, Havlicek had 19, Don Nelson 17, and Larry Siegfried 15.

Wilt: 23/25/? (9/23, 5/7)
Russell: 10/29/9 (3/?, 4/7)

Game 4

In Game 4, Russell had 18 points and 30 rebounds to Chamberlain’s 15 points and 33 rebounds in “a virtual standoff,” and Boston won 114-108 in overtime to take a 3-1 lead. Boston led 28-26 after one, but Philadelphia scored 13 straight points early in the second quarter to take a 54-49 lead at the half. They led 76-70 in the third quarter. Trailing 96-89, Havlicek scored, and Sam Jones was credited with a basket after a goaltend by Chamberlain. Luke Jackson hit a pair of free throws, and Satch Sanders scored from eight feet for Boston. Bill Russell scored on an offensive rebound, and Sam Jones hit a jumper to put Boston up for the first time in the second half, 99-98. Hal Greer gave the 76ers the lead with a breakaway basket, but K.C. Jones tied the score at 100 on a pair of free throws with 39 seconds left. “With the score deadlocked 100-100, Boston’s Bill Russell and Philadelphia’s Wilt Chamberlain matched brilliant defensive plays” (Gettysburg Times, Apr. 11, 1966). Russell blocked a layup by Luke Jackson with 12 seconds left, then on the other end, Chamberlain blocked a dunk by Russell with one second left to send the game into overtime. In overtime, the Celtics controlled the tip, Russell slapping it to Havlicek, who scored on an eight-footer and put Boston up to stay. Russell scored on another offensive rebound, then Dave Gambee made a free throw. Sam Jones hit a 10-footer and Larry Siegfried hit a free throw to give Boston a decisive lead. Russell out-rebounded Chamberlain 19-13 in the second half. John Havlicek led Boston with 27 points, Sam Jones had 22, Larry Siegfried had 18, and K.C. Jones, “a surprise starter after having an ailing knee heavily taped,” had 19 (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Apr. 11, 1966).

Wilt: 15/33/3 (7/14, 1/4)
Russell: 18/30/7 (7/15, 4/10)


His games against Thurmond that year also brought mixed results. He had some strong outings but also some rather weak ones. Even in 64-65 Wilt didn't put up great numbers on Nate.

As for Kareem's series against Wilt and Thurmond, we've beaten it to death in previous threads. I don't want to repeat myself. After all this is a Wilt vs Thurmond topic let's keep the discussion relevant!

Last edited by dankok8 : 01-06-2014 at 04:16 PM.
dankok8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2014, 06:44 PM   #36
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankok8
Wilt actually had a pretty terrible series against Russell in '66. Averaged a paltry 23.5 ppg on 48.7% shooting through the first 4 games... Even in his dominant Game 5 he missed 17 free throws in a close game. His Sixers had a better record than the Celtics in the regular season and got killed 4-1.

In Game 2 and Game 4 Russell definitely outplayed him even statistically. Here are the recaps for those two games.



His games against Thurmond that year also brought mixed results. He had some strong outings but also some rather weak ones. Even in 64-65 Wilt didn't put up great numbers on Nate.

As for Kareem's series against Wilt and Thurmond, we've beaten it to death in previous threads. I don't want to repeat myself. After all this is a Wilt vs Thurmond topic let's keep the discussion relevant!

This exactly what irritates me from the Russell-apologists and those that disparage Chamberlain.

Here are a couple of examples of games in which Russell did NOT outplay Chamberlain, but rather, contained him. At best, Russell battled Chamberlain to a draw.

BUT, I can give you game-after-game in their 49 playoff H2H's in which Wilt CRUSHED Russell in every aspect of the game.

And it is not the same as the Wilt-Kareem '72 series, either. When Wilt played well, he WIPED the floor with Russell. Kareem couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge against Wilt in the last FOUR games of the '72 WCF's. An old Wilt held a PRIME Kareem to .457 in the entire series, in an NBA that shot .455 during the season (and to be fair to Kareem... .439 in the post-season.) Russell never came CLOSE to that kind of a series. He "held" Chamberlain to a .468 series in '62...in a regular season NBA that shot .426...and a post-season NBA that shot .411. My god, Wilt, in his ROOKIE season, had a 30 ppg .500 series against Russell, in a post-season NBA that shot .402 (and was only .395 during the regular season.)

And I would really love to have seen all the players numbers from that '62 series, as well. We do KNOW that Chamberlain's collectively shot .354 in that post-season, while Russell's shot .396. And Russell had THREE player shooting over the league average, while Wilt's best teammate shot .397.

Here again, using the ridiculous recaps from the '62 EDF's, I would read nonsense like Russell shut Wilt down in the first half, and then Wilt put up meaningless stats in the second half. OR, Chamberlain had a huge first half, but when the game was on the line, Russell shut him down. So, in other words, Russell didn't HAVE to play a full game against Chamberlain, for his TEAM to win.

Of course, the best example of that series that I can give was in game two, when Chamberlain outscored Russell 42-9, and outrebounded him, 37-20...in a SEVEN point win. Wilt HAD to produce HUGE numbers for his teams to have a CHANCE at winning.


You want the REAL facts from the 65-66 EDF's, and not some Celtic-homer blathering? Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot...get this... .352 from the field in that series. The reality was, Wilt's Sixers went 6-3 against the Celtics in the regular season, and Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .525 against them in those nine games. In the 65-66 EDF's, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. So, what does THAT tell you?

As always, Chamberlain EASILY outplayed Russell in the 65-66 EDF's, just as he did in the regular season. In their 14 H2H games that season, Wilt outscored Russell in 13 of them, many by 20+ points; outrebounded him in 10 of them, some by 20+ rebounds; and outshot him from the field in every known H2H game we have...again, usually by a solid margin.

Incidently, the Sixers were NOT the better team that season. Yes, they edged Boston by one game in the regular season, BUT, take a look at the game's MISSED by Boston's key players that season. The Celtics were CLEARLY a better team. And to be honest, Chamberlain's 66-67 supporting cast was probably not much better, if at all, than Russell's (and Russell's was MUCH deeper.) BUT, at least they finally neutralized Russell's usual HUGE advantage...and the result? A 4-1 blowout epitomized by the clinching game five win, when the Sixers overcame an early 17 point deficit, and by mid-way in the 4th quarter, had built a 27 point lead. And, as ALWAYS, Chamberlain just carpet-bombed Russell in every aspect of the game in that series.

Can you imagine how many more rings Chamberlain would have won had his teammates even played SLIGHTLY better in his post-seasons? At least FOUR!
And with equal talent, playing equally well, and it would have been Wilt with 7 more rings.
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2014, 07:01 PM   #37
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
His games against Thurmond that year also brought mixed results. He had some strong outings but also some rather weak ones. Even in 64-65 Wilt didn't put up great numbers on Nate.

As for Kareem's series against Wilt and Thurmond, we've beaten it to death in previous threads. I don't want to repeat myself. After all this is a Wilt vs Thurmond topic let's keep the discussion relevant!

Nate outplayed Wilt in ONE game out of their NINE in that 65-66 season. Wilt either easily outplayed him, or downright demolished him in EVERY other H2H that season. He was outscoring him 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13. And it's too bad we only have a couple of their FG% games, because I relatively certain that Nate probably didn't shoot anywhere near 40% against Chamberlain (he almost NEVER did.)

Once again, a mid-60's Wilt (actually a 60-67 Wilt, and evn into 67-68 and 68-69) just slaughtered his peers.

BTW, of the many horrible MVP voting contests that were held in the 60's, just how in the hell did Russell (and even Reed and Unseld) finish ahead of Wilt? I won't go into the Reed or Unseld plasterings that Wilt administered now, but how about this...

Wilt's Lakers had a MUCH better record than Russell's Celtics, 55-27 to 48-34. In their seasonal H2H's, Chamberlain's Lakers held a 4-2 edge, which even included a nationally televised obliteration, in BOSTON, in which LA overwhelmed the Celtics, 108-73. In those six H2H's, Chamberlain outscored Russell in EVERY one of them, including one game by a 35-5 margin. Wilt also held a 5-0-1 margin their rebounding H2H's, which also included one game by a 42-18 margin. And he outshot Russell, from the field, by a .493 to .340 margin. Then there were their seasonal stats. Russell averaged 9.9 ppg, 19.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, and shot .433 from the field. Chamberlain averaged 20.5 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .583 from the field. Oh, and Jerry West missed 21 games that season, too. So, maybe a Russell apostle can explain that voting to me...
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2014, 09:11 PM   #38
dankok8
I hit open 5-footers
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 288
dankok8 has decent reputationdankok8 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
This exactly what irritates me from the Russell-apologists and those that disparage Chamberlain.

Here are a couple of examples of games in which Russell did NOT outplay Chamberlain, but rather, contained him. At best, Russell battled Chamberlain to a draw.

BUT, I can give you game-after-game in their 49 playoff H2H's in which Wilt CRUSHED Russell in every aspect of the game.

And it is not the same as the Wilt-Kareem '72 series, either. When Wilt played well, he WIPED the floor with Russell. Kareem couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge against Wilt in the last FOUR games of the '72 WCF's. An old Wilt held a PRIME Kareem to .457 in the entire series, in an NBA that shot .455 during the season (and to be fair to Kareem... .439 in the post-season.) Russell never came CLOSE to that kind of a series. He "held" Chamberlain to a .468 series in '62...in a regular season NBA that shot .426...and a post-season NBA that shot .411. My god, Wilt, in his ROOKIE season, had a 30 ppg .500 series against Russell, in a post-season NBA that shot .402 (and was only .395 during the regular season.)

And I would really love to have seen all the players numbers from that '62 series, as well. We do KNOW that Chamberlain's collectively shot .354 in that post-season, while Russell's shot .396. And Russell had THREE player shooting over the league average, while Wilt's best teammate shot .397.

Here again, using the ridiculous recaps from the '62 EDF's, I would read nonsense like Russell shut Wilt down in the first half, and then Wilt put up meaningless stats in the second half. OR, Chamberlain had a huge first half, but when the game was on the line, Russell shut him down. So, in other words, Russell didn't HAVE to play a full game against Chamberlain, for his TEAM to win.

Of course, the best example of that series that I can give was in game two, when Chamberlain outscored Russell 42-9, and outrebounded him, 37-20...in a SEVEN point win. Wilt HAD to produce HUGE numbers for his teams to have a CHANCE at winning.


You want the REAL facts from the 65-66 EDF's, and not some Celtic-homer blathering? Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot...get this... .352 from the field in that series. The reality was, Wilt's Sixers went 6-3 against the Celtics in the regular season, and Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .525 against them in those nine games. In the 65-66 EDF's, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. So, what does THAT tell you?

As always, Chamberlain EASILY outplayed Russell in the 65-66 EDF's, just as he did in the regular season. In their 14 H2H games that season, Wilt outscored Russell in 13 of them, many by 20+ points; outrebounded him in 10 of them, some by 20+ rebounds; and outshot him from the field in every known H2H game we have...again, usually by a solid margin.

Incidently, the Sixers were NOT the better team that season. Yes, they edged Boston by one game in the regular season, BUT, take a look at the game's MISSED by Boston's key players that season. The Celtics were CLEARLY a better team. And to be honest, Chamberlain's 66-67 supporting cast was probably not much better, if at all, than Russell's (and Russell's was MUCH deeper.) BUT, at least they finally neutralized Russell's usual HUGE advantage...and the result? A 4-1 blowout epitomized by the clinching game five win, when the Sixers overcame an early 17 point deficit, and by mid-way in the 4th quarter, had built a 27 point lead. And, as ALWAYS, Chamberlain just carpet-bombed Russell in every aspect of the game in that series.

Can you imagine how many more rings Chamberlain would have won had his teammates even played SLIGHTLY better in his post-seasons? At least FOUR!
And with equal talent, playing equally well, and it would have been Wilt with 7 more rings.

Russell OUTPLAYED Chamberlain in those games... the newspaper recaps say so. Impact goes beyond stats. And don't talk about dominance. Wilt averaged 23.5 ppg on 48.7% shooting in the first four games in the '66 EDF. That's 10 points and 5% below his season averages.

Sure his teammates dropped the ball but WILT ALSO DROPPED THE BALL. If he didn't have a 46-point Game 5 (where he missed 17 free throws in a close game by the way) to boost his stats that series would be a catastrophic failure for Chamberlain.

AND...

Outplaying someone in the first half when the game is decided means a lot. If Wilt's Warriors are down 25 points and then he scores 20 meaningless points when Russell doesn't defend him who cares? Russell could stop Wilt when he NEEDED TO... when the moment was big Russell usually got the better of Wilt. Looking at boxscores you wouldn't know that.
dankok8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2014, 09:14 PM   #39
dankok8
I hit open 5-footers
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 288
dankok8 has decent reputationdankok8 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Nate outplayed Wilt in ONE game out of their NINE in that 65-66 season. Wilt either easily outplayed him, or downright demolished him in EVERY other H2H that season. He was outscoring him 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13. And it's too bad we only have a couple of their FG% games, because I relatively certain that Nate probably didn't shoot anywhere near 40% against Chamberlain (he almost NEVER did.)

Once again, a mid-60's Wilt (actually a 60-67 Wilt, and evn into 67-68 and 68-69) just slaughtered his peers.

BTW, of the many horrible MVP voting contests that were held in the 60's, just how in the hell did Russell (and even Reed and Unseld) finish ahead of Wilt? I won't go into the Reed or Unseld plasterings that Wilt administered now, but how about this...

Wilt's Lakers had a MUCH better record than Russell's Celtics, 55-27 to 48-34. In their seasonal H2H's, Chamberlain's Lakers held a 4-2 edge, which even included a nationally televised obliteration, in BOSTON, in which LA overwhelmed the Celtics, 108-73. In those six H2H's, Chamberlain outscored Russell in EVERY one of them, including one game by a 35-5 margin. Wilt also held a 5-0-1 margin their rebounding H2H's, which also included one game by a 42-18 margin. And he outshot Russell, from the field, by a .493 to .340 margin. Then there were their seasonal stats. Russell averaged 9.9 ppg, 19.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, and shot .433 from the field. Chamberlain averaged 20.5 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .583 from the field. Oh, and Jerry West missed 21 games that season, too. So, maybe a Russell apostle can explain that voting to me...

Thurmond was never a big time scorer. Who cares is Wilt outscores him? Point is Wilt never got near his season averages vs. Nate. 28.6 ppg is nice but it's NOT domination.

Russell outplayed Wilt in the '69 Finals. Game 1, 2, 4, and 6 at least.
dankok8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 12:52 AM   #40
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankok8
Thurmond was never a big time scorer. Who cares is Wilt outscores him? Point is Wilt never got near his season averages vs. Nate. 28.6 ppg is nice but it's NOT domination.

Russell outplayed Wilt in the '69 Finals. Game 1, 2, 4, and 6 at least.

Thurmond had FIVE seasons of 20+ ppg in his career, and he outplayed Russell in his H2H's (although not even remotely close to what Chamberlain trashed Russell with in his.)

But here again, the Wilt-bashers EXPECTED Chamberlain to dominate at BOTH ends of the floor, and yet give Russell (and Nate) a free pass at their offensive ends, when Chamberlain was routinely holding them to 5-10% under their career FG%'s....all while crushing them offensively, and dominating them on the glass.

As for the PRIME Wilt-Nate H2H's, which included Thurmonds '67 season (by far his greatest)...over the course of 11 straight games, from their last meeting in '65 thru their first meeting in '67 (when Hannum asked his team to get the ball to Wilt in the second half, and Chamberlain overpowered a helpless Nate for 24 second half points)...Wilt averaged 30 ppg. He had more 30+ point games, in those 11, than KAJ did against Thurmond up thru Nate's last decent season (72-73) and in 34 H2H games. And again, KAJ never came close to Wilt's 38 and 45 point plasterings against Nate, nor anyhwere near his efficiency, either. And please don't give me anything after 72-73, when Thurmond declined DRAMATICALLY (and was injured.)

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 01-07-2014 at 12:59 AM.
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 01:25 AM   #41
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankok8
Russell OUTPLAYED Chamberlain in those games... the newspaper recaps say so. Impact goes beyond stats. And don't talk about dominance. Wilt averaged 23.5 ppg on 48.7% shooting in the first four games in the '66 EDF. That's 10 points and 5% below his season averages.

Sure his teammates dropped the ball but WILT ALSO DROPPED THE BALL. If he didn't have a 46-point Game 5 (where he missed 17 free throws in a close game by the way) to boost his stats that series would be a catastrophic failure for Chamberlain.

AND...

Outplaying someone in the first half when the game is decided means a lot. If Wilt's Warriors are down 25 points and then he scores 20 meaningless points when Russell doesn't defend him who cares? Russell could stop Wilt when he NEEDED TO... when the moment was big Russell usually got the better of Wilt. Looking at boxscores you wouldn't know that.


NYCelt84 had a link from a Wilt-Russell H2H in the early 60's, (I wish I would have saved it, but maybe Fpliii or Julizaver can find it), in which Chamberlain's Warriors were down by over 20 points in the second half, and they came back to win the game. Wilt had something like 47 point in that game.

And I have never read or heard anything by Russell, himself, in which he said he "let" Wilt score either in the first half, or the second halves of games. He was a proud man who was constantly being shelled by a Wilt who, very seldom used his massive edge in strength against him.

And of course, common sense would tell you this...Russell's Celtics won about 60% of their career H2H's (59% in the post-season), and many were very close games. As smart as Russell was, I don't think even he would "allow" Chamberlain to score 30 points on .800 shooting in a game seven, one point win (and then hitting a guidewire on an inbounds play that then gave Philly the chance to win the game.) His TEAM won FOUR game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. Sorry, but that was a flatout falsehood.

As for the 65-66 series, Chamberlain outscored Russell by margins of 25-13, 23-10, 31-11, and 46-18 (Russell did outscore Wilt in one game by an 18-15 margin), and outrebounded him by margins of 32-18, 27-23, 33-30, and 34-31 (and Russell outrebounded Wilt in one game by a 29-25 margin.) And I doubt you have Wilt's FG% in his first two games (but it was .487), nor Russell's, but Russell shot .475 in the post-season, and that included a 7 game Finals of .538...so he likely shot horribly against Wilt, just as he always did. We don know that Wilt shot 12-22, 7-14, and 19-34 in his last three H2H's (.543) and .509 overall, while in the two we have of Russell, he shot 7-15 and 4-11 (.423)...so I suspect that Wilt, as always, probably outshot Russell by a huge margin.

But again, you ignore what Wilt's TEAMMATES collectively shot in that series... .352 (yes .352!)

Russell may have outplayed Wilt in ONE game in that series...and that was it.

And over the course of their 14 H2H's that season, Chamberlain just ANNIHILATED Russell. Just as he did against Bellamy and Nate. (And just as he did against Reed when Willis was playing center in 64-65.)
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 01:48 AM   #42
PHILA
Decent college freshman
 
PHILA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,568
PHILA has an incredible reputation herePHILA has an incredible reputation herePHILA has an incredible reputation herePHILA has an incredible reputation herePHILA has an incredible reputation herePHILA has an incredible reputation herePHILA has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Russell OUTPLAYED Chamberlain in those games... the newspaper recaps say so.


The recaps say that Wilt outplayed Russell in the final 3 games. He definitely picked it up after the first two games. As you said, "Impact goes beyond stats." Then the very next sentence you cite his stats. The Game 4 recap states that he nearly beat Boston "by himself". It is obvious the Celtics were sagging back defensively, keeping him from the ball. Even watching highlights of the series, they would full court press the point guard with KC Jones to make them use up clock in bringing the ball up. They would also shade Wilt before the ball even got in, daring the outside shooters to beat them. Anything to keep the ball out of Wilt's hands as often as possible.




Game 1

Wilt Chamberlain did his work under the boards, taking 32 rebounds for the 76ers. But his mates couldn't get the ball into him often and he made only nine field goals in scoring 25 points.









Game 2







Game 3

Their defense was the barbed wire. Every time they needed a key basket, Wilt Chamberlain poured through the lane and got it for them. That was how the Philadelphia 76ers got back into contention in the Eastern Division playoffs with a 111-105 victory over the Boston Celtics Thursday night at Convention Hall.









Game 4







Game 5

In the 1st half of G5, Coach Schayes noted that Chamberlain was the only player to shoot 25% or better from the field on his way to a 46 point night.





Christian Science Monitor - Apr 14, 1966

Wilt took 34 shots, hitting on 19. But he was only eight for 25 with his free throws. Chamberlain scored 46 points, no small since Russell played him tight and with a maximum amount of contact. But Wilt could have gone to 63 with Bill Sharman's touch at the foul line. Boston's cornermen excelled, not only, but also on offense. John Havlicek played the full 48 minutes and scored 32 points. Tom Sanders probably had his best game of the series with 11 points and 16 rebounds. And Don Nelson, with 12 points in 18 minutes, caught the 76ers completely off guard.
PHILA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 01:59 AM   #43
LAZERUSS
College star
 
LAZERUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,851
LAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this boardLAZERUSS is popular on this board
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILA
The recaps say that Wilt outplayed Russell in the final 3 games. He definitely picked it up after the first two games. As you said, "Impact goes beyond stats." Then the very next sentence you cite his stats. The Game 4 recap states that he nearly beat Boston "by himself". It is obvious the Celtics were sagging back defensively, keeping him from the ball. Even watching highlights of the series, they would full court press the point guard with KC Jones to make them use up clock in bringing the ball up. They would also shade Wilt before the ball even got in, daring the outside shooters to beat them. Anything to keep the ball out of Wilt's hands as often as possible.




Game 1

Wilt Chamberlain did his work under the boards, taking 32 rebounds for the 76ers. But his mates couldn't get the ball into him often and he made only nine field goals in scoring 25 points.









Game 2







Game 3

Their defense was the barbed wire. Every time they needed a key basket, Wilt Chamberlain poured through the lane and got it for them. That was how the Philadelphia 76ers got back into contention in the Eastern Division playoffs with a 111-105 victory over the Boston Celtics Thursday night at Convention Hall.









Game 4







Game 5

In the 1st half of G5, Coach Schayes noted that Chamberlain was the only player to shoot 25% or better from the field on his way to a 46 point night.





Christian Science Monitor - Apr 14, 1966

Wilt took 34 shots, hitting on 19. But he was only eight for 25 with his free throws. Chamberlain scored 46 points, no small since Russell played him tight and with a maximum amount of contact. But Wilt could have gone to 63 with Bill Sharman's touch at the foul line. Boston's cornermen excelled, not only, but also on offense. John Havlicek played the full 48 minutes and scored 32 points. Tom Sanders probably had his best game of the series with 11 points and 16 rebounds. And Don Nelson, with 12 points in 18 minutes, caught the 76ers completely off guard.

More gems.



BTW, I find it fascinating that Russell gets credit for a "win" when he barely held Chamberlain under his normal averages, while getting killed in every stat himself.

Again, the Wilt DOUBLE-STANDARD. His opposing centers were hailed for holding Chamberlain to 30 point-25 rebound games.

I won't take the time to look up the exact quote, but Darrell Imhoff, who was one of the several Knick centers to give up 100 points to Wilt, played against him again a couple of nights later. In his words he said that he battled Chamberlain all night long. He fronted him, he backed him, he pounded him. He played his heart out. And when he finally left the court near the end of the game, he received the first and only standing ovation of his career. He had "held" Chamberlain to "only" 58 points.
LAZERUSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 09:28 AM   #44
julizaver
Decent playground baller
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 356
julizaver is considered somewhat cooljulizaver is considered somewhat cooljulizaver is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankok8
Thurmond was never a big time scorer. Who cares is Wilt outscores him? Point is Wilt never got near his season averages vs. Nate. 28.6 ppg is nice but it's NOT domination.

Russell outplayed Wilt in the '69 Finals. Game 1, 2, 4, and 6 at least.

Game 1 draw at least.
Game 2 Rusell.
Game 3, 4 and 5 Wilt.
Game 6 Russell.
Game 7 Wilt.

Game 1 Wilt played strong defense, blocked 13 shots. Russell 4. Lakers won.
Game 5 Wilt with 7 blocked shots. Anyway he was the better player in that game.
Game 7 Wilt with "at least 10 blocked shots" (new info - I have the article on my PC) prior to his injury.
julizaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 11:34 AM   #45
dankok8
I hit open 5-footers
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 288
dankok8 has decent reputationdankok8 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

Quote:
Originally Posted by julizaver
Game 1 draw at least.
Game 2 Rusell.
Game 3, 4 and 5 Wilt.
Game 6 Russell.
Game 7 Wilt.

Game 1 Wilt played strong defense, blocked 13 shots. Russell 4. Lakers won.
Game 5 Wilt with 7 blocked shots. Anyway he was the better player in that game.
Game 7 Wilt with "at least 10 blocked shots" (new info - I have the article on my PC) prior to his injury.

We agree on Game 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7.

In Game 1 though, Russell got the better of Chamberlain at least according to recaps.

Quote:
1969 Finals

Game 1

Los Angeles won Game 1 in LA 120-118 behind Jerry West's career playoff high of 53 points (20-41 FG, 11-13 FT) and 10 assists. “Jerry West was just great,” said John Havlicek. “With his 10 assists, that gives him 73 points” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 24, 1969). “I suppose it’s one of the greatest games I’ve ever played,” said West. “However, there have been games when I’ve scored a lot fewer points and still felt I helped the team more with assists and playing defense” (The Rock Hill Herald, Apr. 17, 1969). Elgin Baylor had 24. John Havlicek led Boston with 37, Sam Jones had 21, and “Bill Russell of the Celtics won his personal battle with longtime rival Wilt Chamberlain, pulling down 27 rebounds and scoring 16 points to 22 and 15 for Chamberlain.”


In Game 4 it seems to be a draw. The big story was the off-balance shot by Sam Jones after Em Bryant stole the ball from Johnny Egan. The recaps praise Russell for his subs though. His coaching gets underrated!


Anyways overall in this series Russ has a very good case to have outplayed Chamberlain.
dankok8 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:04 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy