Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Los Angeles Lakers Forum

Los Angeles Lakers Forum Los Angeles Lakers message board - los angeles lakers fan forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-22-2014, 12:20 AM   #106
Lakers91
Decent playground baller
 
Lakers91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Lakers91 has decent reputationLakers91 has decent reputation
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Although I don't like sensationalist comments or things like that or spare of the moment comments and this isn't too Laker related, I'm going to add after today I think the MVP race kind of well just ended , I don't exactly have any bias in who wins I actually like both Durant and LeBron (maybe Durant a little more one is quite cocky in LeBron whereas Durant seems to be rather sensitive to criticism and a little conceited/hidden arrogance), after 51 points, 12 rebounds and 7 assists vs the Raptors to go along with so far season averages of 32, 5 and 7 rounded to 8 rebounds shooting 50% I don't see how he doesn't win MVP (would be one of the unluckiest MVP runner ups if LeBron wins it albeit the unluckiest would be Wilt not getting it for 50 points and 25 rebounds) overall though I think the MVP race just about finished he's just showing off now to be honest that game winning three after having the ball knocked away was ruthless.
Lakers91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2014, 08:58 PM   #107
DKLaker
NBA sixth man of the year
 
DKLaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,147
DKLaker has not been impressing people
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers91
Assuming other teams management attempts to contact him? Given most know how loyal he is to the Lakers franchise (despite requested trades to memory to Chicago or LAC I think it was back when the team was quite average), I'm going to guess any offer from 6 or 7 up to 12 or 13 million a year depending on the team, given Josh Smith by the Pistons got a 13 million contract last year as an example, Kobe did produce 27 5 and 5 or so last year but the achilles injury would drop down his value a lot I imagine is why I started lower at 6 or 7, I could see a team going into the double digits but I can't see any team going over 14 or 15 given Lebron is earning 19 and KD is on 17 I don't think a team would offer their salary maybe to Kobe from last year if he can produce those numbers they would but again it's off an achilles injury so I don't see many offers above the 13 or 14 million mark. No team wants to commit massive contracts much anymore due to the CBA and how important financial flexibility is now and will even more so become as time goes on, LeBron is on 19 and will probably get more this year or deserves more, KD is on 17, Joe Johnsons has a massive contract on 18 or 19 or so but in terms of how teams are structuring now contracts over 20 million will become rarer and rarer if offered at all soon enough I imagine, players could still warrant them based on talent but every million is valuable to potential bench or role players so I think teams will begin to offer contracts at a slightly lower rate to pitch to sign other players or role players/bench improvement so I think Kobe could go on average 7 million dollar offers to 12 and maximum I'd say 15 I don't see any offering higher than that unless they just want the marketability/revenue from signing Kobe Bryant for off the court benefits.

He would have been a free agent at the end of THIS season, so coming off Achilles, and then knee surgery at his age, I couldn't see him getting more than 10m and that would have as much to do with marketing value. If the Lakers offered him a matching salary of course he would stay here.
A franchise can't live off the past when a star starts breaking down.
DKLaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2014, 02:54 AM   #108
Lakers91
Decent playground baller
 
Lakers91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Lakers91 has decent reputationLakers91 has decent reputation
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
He would have been a free agent at the end of THIS season, so coming off Achilles, and then knee surgery at his age, I couldn't see him getting more than 10m and that would have as much to do with marketing value. If the Lakers offered him a matching salary of course he would stay here.
A franchise can't live off the past when a star starts breaking down.

I could see 12-15 for a select one or two average teams that would try and pay more to try and sign Kobe Bryant as much for the play as the marketing the marketing would be a rather big factor in paying so much. Operating under the premise that it is purely playing ability coming off an achilles I'd think 10 would be hard to get more than/that would probably be the maximum I'd imagine, but teams would know they'd have to pay more than market value to actually get him away from the Lakers, disregarding that then what you'd actually think he's worth would probably be 9-10 million, Kobe pre injury is probably 15 - 16 ish million in comparison when Durant is on 18 or so I'd say last year would be worthy of 16 million or 17, but teams would have to overpay to get him from LA is why I said one or two of 12-15 region given teams at times overpay for players to pry them away is my reasoning behind it. My opinion hasn't changed on not being particularly positive about it but that doesn't really affect what I think other teams would pay and i think there might be a few times that could stretch it into the bit over 10 million range.

I still have hope that Kobe will be the great Kobe Bryant again given in the wins for the Lakers he did average 21 points but that was 2 wins and 4 losses in the losses he was quite average and had a lot of turnovers/was quite rusty, I hope that that was just rust rather than the effects of the achilles the rust can wear off, the actual effects on an achilles rupture won't come back if he's lost quickness off the first step for example his vertical and sprint speed will probably be less (judging from personal experience anyway he will probably be different), but I hope he doesn't start breaking down now he's been one of the most durable stars in the last few years with all that he's played through but I hold no feelings of guilt in saying that I have my doubts simply because I know how difficult an achilles is to recover from and I didn't have to play against some of the best athletes in the world during my recovery I think it's a big ask for someone at 35 and off an achilles to be what he once was but if anyone can do it with the mental toughness Kobe has it will be him but I will not be surprised if he does decline and become injury prone however I hope he is back to the old Kobe Bryant but once the wheels of time start moving it's hard to go back. The actual evidence would back up he will be worse or decline more but he could still be a good player but the actual facts of an achilles would say the Lakers front office overpaid for a star coming off an achilles that may not be the same, the actual counter argument that he will be fine is not based off logic it is based off faith in the mental and sheer strength of Kobe Bryant in his own ability that isn't a logical argument against that generally you are physically worse off after an achilles and the effects can be permanent but I like to believe and have faith that Kobe Bryant if he can't return to where he feels he can be a great player I think he'd rather retire than be a "has been" he's said before he would retire if he had to be on the bench averaging 10 points I think the quote was, I think if he has permanent effects he can't come back on I think he'd rather retire and be remembered for what he was than play on and be remembered for the post injury version of Kobe.

Last edited by Lakers91 : 03-23-2014 at 02:58 AM.
Lakers91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2014, 01:54 PM   #109
DKLaker
NBA sixth man of the year
 
DKLaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,147
DKLaker has not been impressing people
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers91
I could see 12-15 for a select one or two average teams that would try and pay more to try and sign Kobe Bryant as much for the play as the marketing the marketing would be a rather big factor in paying so much. Operating under the premise that it is purely playing ability coming off an achilles I'd think 10 would be hard to get more than/that would probably be the maximum I'd imagine, but teams would know they'd have to pay more than market value to actually get him away from the Lakers, disregarding that then what you'd actually think he's worth would probably be 9-10 million, Kobe pre injury is probably 15 - 16 ish million in comparison when Durant is on 18 or so I'd say last year would be worthy of 16 million or 17, but teams would have to overpay to get him from LA is why I said one or two of 12-15 region given teams at times overpay for players to pry them away is my reasoning behind it. My opinion hasn't changed on not being particularly positive about it but that doesn't really affect what I think other teams would pay and i think there might be a few times that could stretch it into the bit over 10 million range.

I still have hope that Kobe will be the great Kobe Bryant again given in the wins for the Lakers he did average 21 points but that was 2 wins and 4 losses in the losses he was quite average and had a lot of turnovers/was quite rusty, I hope that that was just rust rather than the effects of the achilles the rust can wear off, the actual effects on an achilles rupture won't come back if he's lost quickness off the first step for example his vertical and sprint speed will probably be less (judging from personal experience anyway he will probably be different), but I hope he doesn't start breaking down now he's been one of the most durable stars in the last few years with all that he's played through but I hold no feelings of guilt in saying that I have my doubts simply because I know how difficult an achilles is to recover from and I didn't have to play against some of the best athletes in the world during my recovery I think it's a big ask for someone at 35 and off an achilles to be what he once was but if anyone can do it with the mental toughness Kobe has it will be him but I will not be surprised if he does decline and become injury prone however I hope he is back to the old Kobe Bryant but once the wheels of time start moving it's hard to go back. The actual evidence would back up he will be worse or decline more but he could still be a good player but the actual facts of an achilles would say the Lakers front office overpaid for a star coming off an achilles that may not be the same, the actual counter argument that he will be fine is not based off logic it is based off faith in the mental and sheer strength of Kobe Bryant in his own ability that isn't a logical argument against that generally you are physically worse off after an achilles and the effects can be permanent but I like to believe and have faith that Kobe Bryant if he can't return to where he feels he can be a great player I think he'd rather retire than be a "has been" he's said before he would retire if he had to be on the bench averaging 10 points I think the quote was, I think if he has permanent effects he can't come back on I think he'd rather retire and be remembered for what he was than play on and be remembered for the post injury version of Kobe.

In my opinion, a team would have had to pay Kobe over $5 million per year more than the Lakers in order to get him...so if the Lakers offer was a firm $10m then it would take $16m to get him......and it would have to be a team capable of winning a title..........don't see any way that was going to happen......plus we could screw them by upping our offer to $12m.
Had we just held our wad, it would have been a game changer.
DKLaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2014, 08:53 PM   #110
Lakers91
Decent playground baller
 
Lakers91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Lakers91 has decent reputationLakers91 has decent reputation
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
In my opinion, a team would have had to pay Kobe over $5 million per year more than the Lakers in order to get him...so if the Lakers offer was a firm $10m then it would take $16m to get him......and it would have to be a team capable of winning a title..........don't see any way that was going to happen......plus we could screw them by upping our offer to $12m.
Had we just held our wad, it would have been a game changer.

The only teams I could see Kobe signing for over the Lakers was maybe a team like the Knicks or Bulls because of Phil Jackson being the president of operations this off season or the Bulls because of wanting to play there in the past; the history, another notch of competing with Jordan etc, but neither of them teams can offer him really anything more than the MLE because both are so far other the cap really just about any contender is over; at or near the cap so that reduced his options enough as is. The teams I could see making an offer big based on $ is a smaller team looking in part for a bit more success on field but more so a marketable superstar off it but it's not like Kobe would ever want to play willingly/by choice with a terrible team though, I didn't see any way Kobe was going to leave unless the Lakers basically insisted on the veteran minimum, if they'd have offered him 10-12 and said we want you at this rate partly because we think it's fair to both your market value and also so we can sign players to put around you type thing I think he'd have signed it assuming the management just offered it, if Kobe had been signalling or hinting what he'd wanted then it's a whole different story I suppose but if Kobe had have hit free agency because the Lakers refused to give him 20+ million I think he'd have came back and signed for far less because he realised the only team willing to pay so much for him would be the Lakers (that's assuming now on the premise that he was hinting at how much he wanted).
Lakers91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2014, 09:49 PM   #111
$LakerGold
#TeamMir #TeamRousey
 
$LakerGold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Venice Beach
Posts: 5,491
$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster$LakerGold is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
Question for everyone.......IF, the Lakers didn't sign Kobe already, what would his current open market value be?
If he's an FA this upcoming summer:

A somewhat contender team or trying to be; would give him at least 9m - 12m.
A team like Milwaukee Bucks will start with 14 - 17 just to fill in those seats.

IMO, if Kobe doesn't play well for his next 5-15 games, then he really has to change his game to a style that's more suitable for his body or else he's really going to drain himself by trying to prove to everyone that he's still a top 5 player. Kobe being Kobe, that's why he's one of the best.

But hey, I hope I'm wrong.
$LakerGold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2014, 10:20 AM   #112
tamaraw08
Decent college freshman
 
tamaraw08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,637
tamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by $LakerGold
If he's an FA this upcoming summer:

A somewhat contender team or trying to be; would give him at least 9m - 12m.
A team like Milwaukee Bucks will start with 14 - 17 just to fill in those seats.

IMO, if Kobe doesn't play well for his next 5-15 games, then he really has to change his game to a style that's more suitable for his body or else he's really going to drain himself by trying to prove to everyone that he's still a top 5 player. Kobe being Kobe, that's why he's one of the best.

But hey, I hope I'm wrong.

I do have some understanding about the "market" but I just coudn't see Buss and Mitch telling Kobe, "hey, we know no team can offer you more than 15 mil with your age and current/past injuries so we'll offer you about that much..maybe 1-2 mil more..." esp when everyone is aware that the team secured that 2 billion contract from Time Warner PLUS he was the main reason they won 5 rings so...
About playing style, I just don't see him attacking that much but my worry is that he will CONTINUE to dominate the ball=and that can hamper the development of the incoming rookie who is supposed to contribute big in the next several years.
My hope is that he'll watch the old tapes of Magic, being more of a facilitator or that of a Luol Deng who is also not very athletic but very effective, playing defense, rebounding and scoring about 18 pts/game.
tamaraw08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 12:29 AM   #113
Lakers91
Decent playground baller
 
Lakers91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Lakers91 has decent reputationLakers91 has decent reputation
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
I do have some understanding about the "market" but I just coudn't see Buss and Mitch telling Kobe, "hey, we know no team can offer you more than 15 mil with your age and current/past injuries so we'll offer you about that much..maybe 1-2 mil more..." esp when everyone is aware that the team secured that 2 billion contract from Time Warner PLUS he was the main reason they won 5 rings so...
About playing style, I just don't see him attacking that much but my worry is that he will CONTINUE to dominate the ball=and that can hamper the development of the incoming rookie who is supposed to contribute big in the next several years.
My hope is that he'll watch the old tapes of Magic, being more of a facilitator or that of a Luol Deng who is also not very athletic but very effective, playing defense, rebounding and scoring about 18 pts/game.


I have always been the believer in the greatest thing for a franchise is winning championships which was my main problem with the contract, was that it hurt the chances for that not just Kobe's new contract but also Nash's 9 million, if they could sign a player like Love and that would be enough then it wouldn't bother me much it more so just worries me that for 2 years there is less flexibility, but if they can find a way then it doesn't worry me I don't care about the contract itself more so just have they shot themselves in the foot salary cap wise by offering such a big deal because they can't exactly sign two superstars (likely anyway) and have Kobe as the 3rd complementary piece now they are basically expecting a superstar like Love and an old star in Kobe to be enough and pieces or what will be remaining about 14 or 15 million maybe a star might be willing to take a pay cut but it's a risky scenario now not being able to give incentive via a maximum contract it's essentially hoping they value winning more than money/are willing to take a cut. Maybe they are just paying for the marketing because Kobe as Kobe is worth well tens or hundreds of millions in marketing but is that worth almost a third of cap space? I don't think so, maybe they are trying to send a message we will look after you but I find it odd considering any other time the Lakers have basically got value similar to Man United and moved a player on, it's an odd time to begin to be sentimental to an aging star who's came off an achilles injury if you value marketing as an owner then the deal is worth it because of what Kobe brings in but if you value building a championship team (which could make you marketing wise you'd think potentially more) the Lakers existed before Kobe and they will exist after him or at least I hope there are actual Laker fans like myself left and not simply Kobe fans but if you want to win championships there's no place for sentiment or weakness and this move was to me if your aims are to build the best team possible but that is just me, Gasol has been on the trading block for the last few years or has been traded once but vetoed and is now in the last year of his contract but only due to not getting enough value back, they shipped Shaq out either in favour of Kobe or because of the massive contract he wanted or both despite Pau being an integral part to two championships and Shaq being the main reason with Kobe being the other reason still an integral part as well to winning three, they haven't shown sentiment to either of Shaq or Pau despite what they have contributed, interesting choice to finally show sentiment.

I'm mixed between what I expect Kobe to do, when he came back and he was struggling shooting or was trying to get back into rhythm he passed more but I'm not sure whether that's because he wanted to pass more and change his style or because he simply knew he was rusty and wasn't right shooting? I think Kobe is too intelligent at least basketball wise not to realise he has to change his game but whether he is actually willing to is a WHOLE different story entirely, I would like to see him be more of a facilitator but I think Kobe will always be the ball dominant guard he's always been I don't see that ever changing no matter how many injuries he gets or how old he gets I think he always has that desire to be the man and to win and in his mind the best way to win is him doing everything himself or do the most scoring himself/shooting type thing because he doesn't seem to trust his teammates to be able to, unfortunately if you want him to score 17/18 points a game I don't think that will ever be Kobe he's said so himself unfortunately, I don't remember the exact quote but Kobe said a few years back he didn't want to stay in the league forever just being a benchwarmer or role player scoring 16 points a game I can't find that quote now for some reason but I do remember reading it 1 or 2 years ago prior to the achilles, Kobe's main desire is to score and his defense wasn't that good last season there were times when it was he dedicated himself to man on man defense or his gambles paid off on defense but it's got worse like everyone's does as time goes on, when he puts energy on defense he doesn't have it for offense as much energy to exert so he saves himself on defense at least he did last year for more on offense and I think seeing as he'll be even older he'll probably do it again, I hope he could become say a 22-23 point per game scorer and more assists, considering he got 6 or so last season scoring 27 maybe he can lower it and push it up to 7 assists or something or just let whoever the rookie is control the ball more to develop (unless your of the thinking you need them to develop off the ball to protect them from it) although if it's Embiid then Kobe might be able to help him a fair bit but who knows but I don't see Kobe changing too much although it'd be good if he does.
Lakers91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 12:56 AM   #114
DKLaker
NBA sixth man of the year
 
DKLaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,147
DKLaker has not been impressing people
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
I do have some understanding about the "market" but I just coudn't see Buss and Mitch telling Kobe, "hey, we know no team can offer you more than 15 mil with your age and current/past injuries so we'll offer you about that much..maybe 1-2 mil more..." esp when everyone is aware that the team secured that 2 billion contract from Time Warner PLUS he was the main reason they won 5 rings so...
About playing style, I just don't see him attacking that much but my worry is that he will CONTINUE to dominate the ball=and that can hamper the development of the incoming rookie who is supposed to contribute big in the next several years.
My hope is that he'll watch the old tapes of Magic, being more of a facilitator or that of a Luol Deng who is also not very athletic but very effective, playing defense, rebounding and scoring about 18 pts/game.

Time Warner deal & rings have nothing to do with any of this.
And their approach should have been along the lines of "Kobe, we want you to win 2 more rings and we're going to do everything in our power to make that happen. The CBA ties our hands and our ability to get talent around you if we pay you a top salary, Let's do this Kobe, Rings over $$$" "Pass Jordan"
You gotta sell the whole thing to him.
DKLaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 10:17 PM   #115
tamaraw08
Decent college freshman
 
tamaraw08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,637
tamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
Time Warner deal & rings have nothing to do with any of this.
And their approach should have been along the lines of "Kobe, we want you to win 2 more rings and we're going to do everything in our power to make that happen. The CBA ties our hands and our ability to get talent around you if we pay you a top salary, Let's do this Kobe, Rings over $$$" "Pass Jordan"
You gotta sell the whole thing to him.
The words "it's not my problem "doesn't Ring a bell do you?
That's the answer of kobe when asked if he's willing to take a pay cut to help the team get more good players. Most superstars might be willing to take a pay cut but only for a few million dollars. And yes I agree with you they shouldn't pay kobe more than $15 million
tamaraw08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2014, 10:22 AM   #116
DKLaker
NBA sixth man of the year
 
DKLaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,147
DKLaker has not been impressing people
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
The words "it's not my problem "doesn't Ring a bell do you?
That's the answer of kobe when asked if he's willing to take a pay cut to help the team get more good players. Most superstars might be willing to take a pay cut but only for a few million dollars. And yes I agree with you they shouldn't pay kobe more than $15 million

That is where you have to be able to SELL, this is why closers make the big bucks. This is how Pat Riley put the big 3 together.
It's not what you say but how you say it, and you have to be willing to stand by your guns when you are in a position of strength as we were.
We were the only payday out there among teams that could compete. I always felt that if we held firm at $10 million we would've at most only had to go up to $12 million.
Yeah, that contract was a jackass move, I still can't believe that some people defended it
DKLaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2014, 11:49 AM   #117
Lakers91
Decent playground baller
 
Lakers91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Lakers91 has decent reputationLakers91 has decent reputation
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
That is where you have to be able to SELL, this is why closers make the big bucks. This is how Pat Riley put the big 3 together.
It's not what you say but how you say it, and you have to be willing to stand by your guns when you are in a position of strength as we were.
We were the only payday out there among teams that could compete. I always felt that if we held firm at $10 million we would've at most only had to go up to $12 million.
Yeah, that contract was a jackass move, I still can't believe that some people defended it

Bugger I typed a large reply then my internet crashed . Anyway I'll retype what I can remember I wrote, I do agree with you about selling the vision but who do you think is actually going to be able to? I mean you have to close and convince a man who just made $30 million dollars to take well 10-15 less and convince him it's a good idea (after he's said I'm not taking any less type statements) he's not going to back down easily, who do you think really on the Lakers FO could? I respect Mitch Kupchak as a GM but really he's not a closer for these sort of deals in my opinion I have little doubt Kobe respects him but I don't think it'd be enough to get him to take such a reduced deal, maybe Jerry Buss but he has departed this world he probably would have been that alluring figure that convinced Kobe to stay once maybe he could convince him to take less, now again it's not so much disagreeing with you but is it really possible for them to have sold him the vision? I mean closers to me at least in negotiations tend to be that passionate; charismatic maybe extroverted figure that makes you believe and convinces you, Pat Riley is a sporting icon in terms of as a head coach and as a GM, he's not someone you say no to very easily/I imagine he would have been VERY convincing and alluring to the Big three before it was formed, Kupchak as I said I like him as a GM due to some of the trades he's made but he doesn't seem like someone who could close Kobe Bryant or be that figure, I think Jerry West could have been but he's not really a part of the organisation anymore unfortunately. The situation required an icon or someone who Kobe Bryant would look to and see their point of view and be able to think wow this is x person telling me (let's say Jerry West) with his legacy and him saying we want you to take this deal so we can build, have confidence in me to do it and I believe I can if you take less but I can't build a contender with you taking up a third of the space type thing if he makes that pitch it's not going to be easy for Kobe to refuse knowing it's Jerry West or any figure like him, Kupchak is a good GM but as a GM and as a sporting icon he's not Jerry West I suppose similar to Pat Riley, I don't really see any in the front office now that would be able to pitch it to Kobe well enough to get him to have enough confidence to take less money, I don't think Jim Buss would be able to/I think Kobe has doubts in him at the least, I think had either Jerry Buss or West been there they might have but I don't see any of the current front office having enough rapport and enough of well being a passionate and respected figure to convince Kobe to, in negotiations (they didn't even negotiate much to my knowledge maybe he dropped hints) you want someone who won't back down and is assertive but also doesn't come across as an enemy/represents the utilitarian greater good but you do need someone who is assertive and this is Kobe Bryant again one of the most enigmatic and mysterious and I believe introverted superstars in NBA history he can be hard to read and rather private (especially when he first came into the NBA) because of his quiet thinking/strategic approach I think he'd be difficult to negotiate with so you would certainly need a pretty big figure to be able to not only hold their nerve but successfully negotiate with such a sporting figure in Kobe Bryant, I don't really see any in the front office able to do that. I'm not sure if I should say the Lakers blinked first because really there wasn't even a staredown to negotiate it was just here's the contract so can't really say they blinked first/turned away it was just a submission/contract here it is or if you prefer a sentimental contract for all the hard work Kobe's done for the organisation, it is all just my opinion of course but I don't really see any of the Lakers FO having almost the gall to hold strong against such a figure in Kobe I'd imagine it'd be intimidating for some to head into negotiations with such a figure and have the confidence to charismatically pitch such an idea maybe that's where maybe doing what the Warriors did with to memory last year they got West to pitch ideas, maybe the Lakers could have done that who knows but I certainly for the most part haven't changed my mind on the actual contract but I hope it turns out fine/isn't too constricting but I fear it will be.

Last edited by Lakers91 : 03-27-2014 at 11:53 AM.
Lakers91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2014, 01:18 AM   #118
tamaraw08
Decent college freshman
 
tamaraw08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,637
tamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops postertamaraw08 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
That is where you have to be able to SELL, this is why closers make the big bucks. This is how Pat Riley put the big 3 together.
It's not what you say but how you say it, and you have to be willing to stand by your guns when you are in a position of strength as we were.
We were the only payday out there among teams that could compete. I always felt that if we held firm at $10 million we would've at most only had to go up to $12 million.
Yeah, that contract was a jackass move, I still can't believe that some people defended it

You mentioned Riley and the big 3, like I said, superstars would take a few million dollar pay cut but I don't see the taking more than 5 mil(which btw Kobe already gave a discount compare from his last contract) IMO. Of course there are exceptions...
I think you are underestimating the intelligence of Kobe, that he's aware how salary cap works, how every team can't simply sign any great free agents once they acquire very expensive players, its just that these players still value the mighty dollar just like what Nash said last week.
tamaraw08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2014, 02:56 AM   #119
DKLaker
NBA sixth man of the year
 
DKLaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,147
DKLaker has not been impressing people
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers91
Bugger I typed a large reply then my internet crashed . Anyway I'll retype what I can remember I wrote, I do agree with you about selling the vision but who do you think is actually going to be able to? I mean you have to close and convince a man who just made $30 million dollars to take well 10-15 less and convince him it's a good idea (after he's said I'm not taking any less type statements) he's not going to back down easily, who do you think really on the Lakers FO could? I respect Mitch Kupchak as a GM but really he's not a closer for these sort of deals in my opinion I have little doubt Kobe respects him but I don't think it'd be enough to get him to take such a reduced deal, maybe Jerry Buss but he has departed this world he probably would have been that alluring figure that convinced Kobe to stay once maybe he could convince him to take less, now again it's not so much disagreeing with you but is it really possible for them to have sold him the vision? I mean closers to me at least in negotiations tend to be that passionate; charismatic maybe extroverted figure that makes you believe and convinces you, Pat Riley is a sporting icon in terms of as a head coach and as a GM, he's not someone you say no to very easily/I imagine he would have been VERY convincing and alluring to the Big three before it was formed, Kupchak as I said I like him as a GM due to some of the trades he's made but he doesn't seem like someone who could close Kobe Bryant or be that figure, I think Jerry West could have been but he's not really a part of the organisation anymore unfortunately. The situation required an icon or someone who Kobe Bryant would look to and see their point of view and be able to think wow this is x person telling me (let's say Jerry West) with his legacy and him saying we want you to take this deal so we can build, have confidence in me to do it and I believe I can if you take less but I can't build a contender with you taking up a third of the space type thing if he makes that pitch it's not going to be easy for Kobe to refuse knowing it's Jerry West or any figure like him, Kupchak is a good GM but as a GM and as a sporting icon he's not Jerry West I suppose similar to Pat Riley, I don't really see any in the front office now that would be able to pitch it to Kobe well enough to get him to have enough confidence to take less money, I don't think Jim Buss would be able to/I think Kobe has doubts in him at the least, I think had either Jerry Buss or West been there they might have but I don't see any of the current front office having enough rapport and enough of well being a passionate and respected figure to convince Kobe to, in negotiations (they didn't even negotiate much to my knowledge maybe he dropped hints) you want someone who won't back down and is assertive but also doesn't come across as an enemy/represents the utilitarian greater good but you do need someone who is assertive and this is Kobe Bryant again one of the most enigmatic and mysterious and I believe introverted superstars in NBA history he can be hard to read and rather private (especially when he first came into the NBA) because of his quiet thinking/strategic approach I think he'd be difficult to negotiate with so you would certainly need a pretty big figure to be able to not only hold their nerve but successfully negotiate with such a sporting figure in Kobe Bryant, I don't really see any in the front office able to do that. I'm not sure if I should say the Lakers blinked first because really there wasn't even a staredown to negotiate it was just here's the contract so can't really say they blinked first/turned away it was just a submission/contract here it is or if you prefer a sentimental contract for all the hard work Kobe's done for the organisation, it is all just my opinion of course but I don't really see any of the Lakers FO having almost the gall to hold strong against such a figure in Kobe I'd imagine it'd be intimidating for some to head into negotiations with such a figure and have the confidence to charismatically pitch such an idea maybe that's where maybe doing what the Warriors did with to memory last year they got West to pitch ideas, maybe the Lakers could have done that who knows but I certainly for the most part haven't changed my mind on the actual contract but I hope it turns out fine/isn't too constricting but I fear it will be.

You hit the nail on the head.....I knew you would if I set it up
Jimmy is a mental midget and Mitch is a good guy but has absolutely no charisma, Mitch's entire approach is the "We're the Lakers, we win championships". That may cut if for some but when you hire one bad coach after another and have an unproven and disrespected owner then it becomes a hard sell.
As for what Tam said, I say YES, Kobe is smart but the ball was no longer in his court, we needed to let him see that his options of leaving the Lakers were bad, sure he could get more money on a horrible team, this means he would have to move to a less desirable city, this wouldn't be popular for his wife nor his kids among other issues. Kobe was not going anywhere so I would have let him see for himself that what he wanted just wasn't there.
I said at the time it was a brilliant move by Rob P. to trick the Lakers into signing him before we saw what he could or couldn't do.....and it further exposed how inept Jimmy Buss is.
DKLaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2014, 03:25 AM   #120
Lakers91
Decent playground baller
 
Lakers91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Lakers91 has decent reputationLakers91 has decent reputation
Default Re: ☆ Lakers Open Court ☆

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
You hit the nail on the head.....I knew you would if I set it up
Jimmy is a mental midget and Mitch is a good guy but has absolutely no charisma, Mitch's entire approach is the "We're the Lakers, we win championships". That may cut if for some but when you hire one bad coach after another and have an unproven and disrespected owner then it becomes a hard sell.
As for what Tam said, I say YES, Kobe is smart but the ball was no longer in his court, we needed to let him see that his options of leaving the Lakers were bad, sure he could get more money on a horrible team, this means he would have to move to a less desirable city, this wouldn't be popular for his wife nor his kids among other issues. Kobe was not going anywhere so I would have let him see for himself that what he wanted just wasn't there.
I said at the time it was a brilliant move by Rob P. to trick the Lakers into signing him before we saw what he could or couldn't do.....and it further exposed how inept Jimmy Buss is.


Haha maybe I should call you Magic or Rondo for the assist on setting that one up

It may sound harsh just note that before reading this as I'm typing it because I think most will see it as harsh but I do think the Lakers in the front office did get too caught up with Kobe Bryant the figure, it was in my opinion a sentimental and emotional decision basically to give Kobe one last big contract a thank you for his services to the organisation, but it's the first time they've really done it Pau was signed to a pretty big deal in his prime expiring this year but they haven't been quiet (the lakers) in my opinion about how he has been traded once in the annexed Paul deal but also in other multiple rumours, O'Neal was giving his marching orders either due to the massive contract he wanted or because Kobe wanted him out or Shaq and Kobe couldn't coexist any longer whichever there haven't been really any personal ties, the Lakers have been a business brand that is about winning and it is the brand above one player no matter how good, but this time they offered a big contract to Kobe, now I've said it before for marketing purposes maybe it's not bad for all he contributes in revenue but I imagine Shaq contributed a lot in revenue too because of his extroverted and almost childlike having fun personality but they didn't have a problem with getting rid of him (maybe because they chose Kobe over him but anyway), it truly seemed like a gift to Kobe, because as you said the Lakers could have played hardball and really where would Kobe go? If Kobe had walked into a negotiation room and said I want 24 million dollars or I'm leaving and the Lakers say fine you are a superstar and icon of the Lakers but you aren't taking up a 3rd of cap space again and he goes out and sees the only place he might get 15 million if even that is a small market (which I can't see Kobe playing in and also personal relationships), really Kobe doesn't have that many options if he truly values money then he isn't joining a team for the minimum to win a title type thing so if he wants money then he isn't getting near as much as he thought if he goes to another team, no team in the league is offering him 20 million in my opinion teams will offer LeBron or Durant or Paul etc that but they are in their late 20's and haven't come off achilles injuries either and I think if they had come off achilles injuries teams would be hesitant, no matter how good someone was you must have some hesitation knowing what an achilles rupture can do. Kobe could have stormed into negotiations and demanded but if the Lakers held firm his only real options were accepting less money than he's making now far less anyway because the market would dictate his value to be lower anyway and it's likely not at a team he'd like, NY and Chicago the only two other teams or maybe LAC a big market team that he'd want to play in can't offer him anymore than 15 and I doubt they would if they could anyway, both NY and Chicago are above the captain anyway so either MLE or Vet minimum would be the only real options, maybe it's not the contract that bothered me so much but more so how much of a gift it was it just seemed like a too personal decision to me, I don't think there's a place in business or economics for such sentiment but that is just me. This might not have a place but it's an analogy to a different sport an AFL player who is very promising last year was out of contract his current club offered him 800,000 a year (that's a lot in AFL it's not big money in comparison to NBA) and he tried to force the clubs hand but he's a loose cannon no club would touch him apart from his current he ended up coming back having to settle for 450 because they wouldn't give him more because he'd tried to force their hand, he'd lost a lot of money trying to negotiate when he had no power. I think that could have been what would happen if Kobe had demanded such a contract and the Lakers said "here's 10 million, the market wouldn't dictate you to be worth too much more you may think you are but we are paying you according to market value and we want to win a championship you taking less allows us to offer far more to give you more talent to surround you with, we can sign two superstars and more roleplayers not just one star with you taking this amount" had they took that approach and had Kobe looked around and saw his lack of options he'd have signed for less, negotiation wise if I'm negotiating for the Lakers FO heck I'd try even to stronghold further I'd offer him 6 or 7 to start and then make him think "wow they really aren't offering me what I'd hope" and then have him try and drag up my figure what is acceptable (10-15 get him down to that from a measly offer to start) and if he walks away he walks away but to what does he walk to? A mid market team that he wouldn't likely want to play for, for a few million more probably not with much chance of winning a title anyway. There needed to be a figure that could have closed Kobe without needing to get nasty in negotiations regarding the amount but boy could they have likely signed him for less though if they had just waited, would it happen in the corporate world? Is how I look at it if someone makes me so much revenue you know I might consider signing him to a big deal in comparison to his worth but I'm only offering such a deal which is basically twice or even close to three times what any other company would if they actually have a viable alternative, if there is no alternative and I'm the only option that can satisfy all of their requirements for employment why would I overpay if I'm the only viable option? I might pay a bit more so I still look like the good guy but I'm not putting twice or close to three times market value I'd consider giving an extra bit on top say Kobe's value is about 10-12, maybe 13 or 14 million a few extra million in comparison for loyalty still a bit above market value, but 24!? More than 10 million likely what anyone else would pay (that he'd want to play for especially), again there is the revenue side what he brings in but even with what he brings in you're still overpaying when you don't actually have to, you're affecting on court success which is a pretty big factor in a teams viability and marketability, you could point to Kobe not playing as to why the Lakers didn't sell out a number of games but could that be just as much because they are terrible as Kobe not playing/both be a factor rather than it just being Kobe maybe people stopped turning up because they didn't want to watch a loss? That is just my thinking on it anyway, the whole decision to offer such a contract I just don't see why when you don't have to it's just puzzling to me, if someone can prove or justify why that I think is logical I'll happily hear it out but when I look at the surrounding situation it seems like a very rushed; emotional and sentimental move which the Lakers have rarely if ever done in the franchises history.
Lakers91 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:27 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy