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Old 10-12-2013, 02:49 AM   #46
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

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Originally Posted by plowking
Big men of today are still great defensively. Its on the offensive end where they don't get enough touches.

is this a joke.................... today big man is soft,they hv no defence,they rather watch lebron showoff,walk away than challenge his shot like Zo did before
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:52 AM   #47
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
I don't think 45 is realistic, but somewhere between 35-40 doesn't seem too outlandish. It would depend on the situation, though. What if you put him on a run-n-gun, ball in his hands all the time, free reign to do what you want team like the Rockets last year? A team that doesn't have a legit second option, but still a couple or so decent third option types and good shooters to space the floor?

Because I think you could put someone like Durant on last year's Rockets, and he'd average 32ish PPG. Jordan was a superior scorer and player, no? So why isn't something like 37+ PPG, on a team like that with their offensive philosophy, crazy? Do the Rockets win the championship? Probably not. But they go from being a 47-win 8-seed, to 55ish win top 4 seed and at least some sort of threat to make it out of the West.

JORDAN WOULD GET TO THE LINE 20FTA PER GAME
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:02 AM   #48
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

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Originally Posted by jstern
Jordan said that in the 90s he could average 40 ppg, but that it would have hurt the team.

He's right, for that team. But we saw him dominate whenever he needed to. He would usually come out and get others involved and take over when needed.

Put him on a team that's dependent on his scoring and he may very well average 40 points. Kobe manages to take 20 shots per game on a team that's built for him NOT to take that many shots.

Bron averaged 23 shots per game in 05-06 and he's not as aggressive as MJ, nor is he as good of a scorer. In that season he shot .480% FG with 31 PPG.

It's very possible for MJ to average 25 attempts per game consistently under the right team. Kobe had the green light and took 27, on less efficiency than MJ and mostly as a jump shooter not a slasher/mid range. Mj would get more fts then Kobe did that season and convert on a higher percentage than Kobe.

So people can do the math on this one:

25 FGA on .530%
13 FTA on .840%
3 FGA on .340

That seems possible

He'd be getting roughly 22 points on fts alone (11 made), around 26 points on FGs (13 or so), that's 48.

Naturally, we can just be conservative and drop it down to 45 for argument's sake.

Again, of course this is all hypotheticals and rough estimates. But there is some evidence that players have taken that many shots in today's era. It isn't undheard of.

I do think it would be hard for MJ to win a title, but Iverson went to the Finals chucking 25 attempts per game.

So again, under the proper team MJ can shoot 25 times a game and win a chip.

Last edited by andgar923 : 10-12-2013 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:26 AM   #49
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
He's right, for that team. But we saw him dominate whenever he needed to. He would usually come out and get others involved and take over when needed.

Put him on a team that's dependent on his scoring and he may very well average 40 points. Kobe manages to take 20 shots per game on a team that's built for him NOT to take that many shots.

Bron averaged 23 shots per game in 05-06 and he's not as aggressive as MJ, nor is he as good of a scorer. In that season he shot .480% FG with 31 PPG.

It's very possible for MJ to average 25 attempts per game consistently under the right team. Kobe had the green light and took 27, on less efficiency than MJ and mostly as a jump shooter not a slasher/mid range. Mj would get more fts then Kobe did that season and convert on a higher percentage than Kobe.

So people can do the math on this one:

25 FGA on .530%
13 FTA on .840%
3 FGA on .340

That seems possible

He'd be getting roughly 22 points on fts alone (11 made), around 26 points on FGs (13 or so), that's 48.

Naturally, we can just be conservative and drop it down to 45 for argument's sake.

Again, of course this is all hypotheticals and rough estimates. But there is some evidence that players have taken that many shots in today's era. It isn't undheard of.

I do think it would be hard for MJ to win a title, but Iverson went to the Finals chucking 25 attempts per game.

So again, under the proper team MJ can shoot 25 times a game and win a chip.

That's not bad. Not bad at all.
But contrary to popular opinion, there are FAR fewer free throw attempts in 2013 league than there were in 1993 NBA: 2013 league average 1818 vs. 2273 tries in 1993. With 400 fewer trips to the charity stripe (approximate per team average) each season, even Jordan isn't going to get an outrageous number of trips to the line.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_1993.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_2013.html

Jordan's 7 FTAs per game in 1993 aren't going to leap UP nearly double in a 2013 league that is shooting almost exactly 20% FEWER free throws than his 1993 league was.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:36 AM   #50
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
He's right, for that team. But we saw him dominate whenever he needed to. He would usually come out and get others involved and take over when needed.

Put him on a team that's dependent on his scoring and he may very well average 40 points. Kobe manages to take 20 shots per game on a team that's built for him NOT to take that many shots.

Bron averaged 23 shots per game in 05-06 and he's not as aggressive as MJ, nor is he as good of a scorer. In that season he shot .480% FG with 31 PPG.

It's very possible for MJ to average 25 attempts per game consistently under the right team. Kobe had the green light and took 27, on less efficiency than MJ and mostly as a jump shooter not a slasher/mid range. Mj would get more fts then Kobe did that season and convert on a higher percentage than Kobe.

So people can do the math on this one:

25 FGA on .530%
13 FTA on .840%
3 FGA on .340

That seems possible

He'd be getting roughly 22 points on fts alone (11 made), around 26 points on FGs (13 or so), that's 48.

Naturally, we can just be conservative and drop it down to 45 for argument's sake.

Again, of course this is all hypotheticals and rough estimates. But there is some evidence that players have taken that many shots in today's era. It isn't undheard of.

I do think it would be hard for MJ to win a title, but Iverson went to the Finals chucking 25 attempts per game.

So again, under the proper team MJ can shoot 25 times a game and win a chip.

22 points on 11 FTA is some incredible efficiency, my good man.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:49 AM   #51
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

Quote:
Originally Posted by La Frescobaldi
That's not bad. Not bad at all.
But contrary to popular opinion, there are FAR fewer free throw attempts in 2013 league than there were in 1993 NBA: 2013 league average 1818 vs. 2273 tries in 1993. With 400 fewer trips to the charity stripe (approximate per team average) each season, even Jordan isn't going to get an outrageous number of trips to the line.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_1993.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_2013.html

Jordan's 7 FTAs per game in 1993 aren't going to leap UP nearly double in a 2013 league that is shooting almost exactly 20% FEWER free throws than his 1993 league was.

Kobe shot 8 last season and he's a jump shooter, while only playing 38 minutes per game and out of his athletic prime (aka attacking the rim drawing fouls), and more importantly less shot attempts per game.

Harden last season averaged 10 FTA on 17 FGA with 6 of those being 3pointers on only 38 minutes per game.

MJ playing 40 minutes per game will no doubt have more possessions, take more shots, get more FTA and make them at a higher percentage than Harden. He's a better slasher, better at the mid range, better at finishing, more aggressive etc.etc.

MJ attacked the rim when it was protected, when there was 'enforcers', when they could camp in the paint, when he was hand checked (use more energy), etc.etc. What every player, coach, GM, expert is saying throw away all of those obstacles that were on his way and he'd get 45 points. And that's being rather conservative. Not including And 1 plays in which he could realistically get at least 2 times per game (avg) with today's rules. He'd use up less energy, so it all adds up to a scenario in which he could realistically/hypothetically avg 45 (conservatively speaking).

Also, anybody that saw his Wizard games on a regular basis would tell you that he used to get in the low to mid 20s by half time on a regular basis when he didn't play back to back games. Or in other words, when his legs were relatively feeling fine. When MJ got a few days off, he was dropping 30+ points on high efficiency. To some degree, MJ had an easier time scoring (when rested) as a Wizard than as a Bull in 98. It was less physical play, he could easily just walk into position in the post without much resistance. He was blowing by guys 20 years younger on the perimeter because there was no handchecking or oposition.

It isn't something that's hard to imagine.
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:22 AM   #52
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
Kobe shot 8 last season and he's a jump shooter, while only playing 38 minutes per game and out of his athletic prime (aka attacking the rim drawing fouls), and more importantly less shot attempts per game.

Harden last season averaged 10 FTA on 17 FGA with 6 of those being 3pointers on only 38 minutes per game.

MJ playing 40 minutes per game will no doubt have more possessions, take more shots, get more FTA and make them at a higher percentage than Harden. He's a better slasher, better at the mid range, better at finishing, more aggressive etc.etc.

MJ attacked the rim when it was protected, when there was 'enforcers', when they could camp in the paint, when he was hand checked (use more energy), etc.etc. What every player, coach, GM, expert is saying throw away all of those obstacles that were on his way and he'd get 45 points. And that's being rather conservative. Not including And 1 plays in which he could realistically get at least 2 times per game (avg) with today's rules. He'd use up less energy, so it all adds up to a scenario in which he could realistically/hypothetically avg 45 (conservatively speaking).

Also, anybody that saw his Wizard games on a regular basis would tell you that he used to get in the low to mid 20s by half time on a regular basis when he didn't play back to back games. Or in other words, when his legs were relatively feeling fine. When MJ got a few days off, he was dropping 30+ points on high efficiency. To some degree, MJ had an easier time scoring (when rested) as a Wizard than as a Bull in 98. It was less physical play, he could easily just walk into position in the post without much resistance. He was blowing by guys 20 years younger on the perimeter because there was no handchecking or oposition.

It isn't something that's hard to imagine.

Agree (except Harden averaged 10, not 11 but your point is still valid).

I'm not saying MJ couldn't get 40 or even that astronomical 45. Because I think he could. But it wouldn't because of FTAs. Front courts in today's league hold their arms up instead of thumping a guy. A lot of his 1 and 2 point possessions back then would be 3 point possessions today because he'd make his baskets &1. He got tons of no calls, but more than that the fouls he got back then were making certain sure he did not make the shot. Don't see that very often today.
Of course he would warp the league, just like he did then, and all teams would adjust as much as they could.
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:36 AM   #53
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

Why are people overreacting to this, I thought i was general knowledge?

Back then anytime you went into the paint you had to pay a price. Have it where MJ is babied like LeBron and others with no hand checking rules and it's just too easy. Back in his era perimeter players would take abuse for driving into the paint a lot.

All of these rules now are just put in place to benefit perimeter players in the hopes of fabricating another Jordan and yet none of these chumps even compare to peak Jordan and some of the ridiculous playoff numbers and performances he put up.

Throw him in this era with weaker competition and a soft as hell league and it'd be absolutely unfair.
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:44 AM   #54
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

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Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
I would like to see that without 110 pace and with no 3 point shot. Good luck leading your team to lottery by jacking midrange jumpers all game long.



It all really depends if you are of the belief that this era is inferior to the one MJ played in. If you are of that belief, then I could see MJ averaging 40+ a game on 25 to 26 shots a game on about 56-57% FG.
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:46 AM   #55
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

MJ isn't doing any better or worse than what he did in his era.

Idiots should shut their pie hole and accept that the median level of talent stays the same in general. If he could drop 45ppg now, he would have done it when he was playing. He didn't, so the point is moot.
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:02 AM   #56
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

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Originally Posted by plowking
MJ isn't doing any better or worse than what he did in his era.

Idiots should shut their pie hole and accept that the median level of talent stays the same in general. If he could drop 45ppg now, he would have done it when he was playing. He didn't, so the point is moot.

So basically, the majority of players, coaches, experts, GMs, etc.etc. are all 'idiots' and wrong, and you're correct.

And some in that belief have played, coached, or were part of both eras, but they're the idiots and you are right.

Gotcha
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:07 AM   #57
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

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Originally Posted by andgar923
So basically, the majority of players, coaches, experts, GMs, etc.etc. are all 'idiots' and wrong, and you're correct.

And some in that belief have played, coached, or were part of both eras, but they're the idiots and you are right.

Gotcha

What players?

From what I've read from players that have played in both eras, the majority say its harder to score now. That includes Duncan, KG and T-Mac.

A bunch of old timers saying they're better? What's new? Guys that played in both eras? Interesting to see they say its harder now.
I at least gave your old timer era the benefit of the doubt and called it equal based on player opinions.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:13 AM   #58
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

Tom Gugliotta was an all star in MJ's time. Let that sink in.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:28 AM   #59
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

People actually guard you nowadays.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:29 AM   #60
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Default Re: Horace Grant: "Michael would average 45 PPG today"

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Tom Gugliotta was an all star in MJ's time. Let that sink in.
lol. funny thing is that he had only 2 good seasons in 97 and 98 .
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