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Old 10-03-2013, 08:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeylessEntry
QB is not the only reason a team would tank for the #1 pick. Clowney is one of the best defensive prospects in years, a lot of teams are drooling over him.
He's an excellent prospect but he's not the only guy in the draft that could have a good career. NFL history is full of guys that went late in the draft and had HOF careers as well as Leafs, Couches and Jamarcus Russell. You don't completely throw away a season just because you're obsessed with one player. And if you're seriously that concerned that Freeman might make you win remember that the Bucs are 0-3 with him this season. Don't worry, he's probably not a cure-all...though if he can make you win games and a possible playoff team isn't that a good thing? Losing actually isn't the point.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

1) Clowney is pretty much as sure a thing as a prospect can possibly get.

2) It's not only your first round pick that will be higher but your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th will be higher as well. (Plus you'll have to give up a pick to get him)

3) You're gonna have to pay Josh Freeman 5mil for 12 games.

4) You're already 0-4 3 games back of the division leader. odds are pretty much certain you're not going to make the playoffs.

5) Say you trade for Freeman you go 6-10(optimistic prediction). Pick 8th overall miss out on Clowney and Teddy. THAT WOULD BE DEVASTATING for that fan base/franchise. They need something to gewt excited about.

6) Josh Freeman reportedly has a terrible work ethic and is not a leader. On a young team like the Jags that could be a terrible mix.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
There's no Andrew Luck sure-thing in the draft this year at QB. You don't have to sacrifice all pride and go for an 0-16 record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
He's an excellent prospect but he's not the only guy in the draft that could have a good career. NFL history is full of guys that went late in the draft and had HOF careers as well as Leafs, Couches and Jamarcus Russell. You don't completely throw away a season just because you're obsessed with one player. And if you're seriously that concerned that Freeman might make you win remember that the Bucs are 0-3 with him this season. Don't worry, he's probably not a cure-all...though if he can make you win games and a possible playoff team isn't that a good thing? Losing actually isn't the point.

What? Your arguments are not making much sense considering that Clowney is just as sure of a prospect as Andrew Luck was.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
What makes Bridgewater a better prospect vs. RG3?

- Accuracy
- Better at reading defenses
- Pro style offense in college
- Better size no major injury history
- Better from the pocket when under pressure

Being totally honest I wasn't THAT high on RG3. Didn't think he was close to Luck as a prospect.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundMoundOfReb
1) Clowney is pretty much as sure a thing as a prospect can possibly get.

2) It's not only your first round pick that will be higher but your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th will be higher as well. (Plus you'll have to give up a pick to get him)

3) You're gonna have to pay Josh Freeman 5mil for 12 games.

4) You're already 0-4 3 games back of the division leader. odds are pretty much certain you're not going to make the playoffs.

5) Say you trade for Freeman you go 6-10(optimistic prediction). Pick 8th overall miss out on Clowney and Teddy. THAT WOULD BE DEVASTATING for that fan base/franchise. They need something to gewt excited about.

6) Josh Freeman reportedly has a terrible work ethic and is not a leader. On a young team like the Jags that could be a terrible mix.
If Freeman really is as bad as #6 says he is how is he hurting your wonderfully bad season? And If he pushes you to 6-4 for the rest of the season then odds are he's the answer you've been seeking out at QB. Look at this list of #1 picks since 2000:

Year Player Position School Team Years Played Pro Bowls
2012 Andrew Luck QB Stanford Indianapolis Colts 0 0
2011 Cam Newton QB Auburn Carolina Panthers 1 1
2010 Sam Bradford QB Oklahoma St. Louis Rams 2 0
2009 Matthew Stafford QB Georgia Detroit Lions 3 -
2008 Jake Long OT Michigan Miami Dolphins 4 4
2007 JaMarcus Russell QB LSU Oakland Raiders 3 0
2006 Mario Williams DE N. Carolina State Houston Texans 6 2
2005 Alex Smith QB Utah San Francisco 49ers 7 0
2004 Eli Manning QB Mississippi San Diego Chargers 8 2
2003 Carson Palmer QB Southern Cal. Cincinnati Bengals 9 2
2002 David Carr QB Fresno State Houston Texans 10 0
2001 Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech Atlanta Falcons 9 4
2000 Courtney Brown DE Penn State Cleveland Browns 7 0

So far only one of those guys is a perennial Pro Bowler. Of the QBs only Eli Manning has led his team to the Superbowl. And only Palmer has an MVP award. With this kind of track record the idea that tanking is worthwhile just doesn't make sense.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeylessEntry
What? Your arguments are not making much sense considering that Clowney is just as sure of a prospect as Andrew Luck was.
1: The DE equivalent of Luck is not as valuable as Luck because he's a DE, not a QB.

2: Re-read the line you quoted first:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
There's no Andrew Luck sure-thing in the draft this year at QB. You don't have to sacrifice all pride and go for an 0-16 record.
Again: Clowney is not a quarterback.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Because of his salary. Not worth it.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:01 PM   #23
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
If Freeman really is as bad as #6 says he is how is he hurting your wonderfully bad season? And If he pushes you to 6-4 for the rest of the season then odds are he's the answer you've been seeking out at QB. Look at this list of #1 picks since 2000:

Year Player Position School Team Years Played Pro Bowls
2012 Andrew Luck QB Stanford Indianapolis Colts 0 0
2011 Cam Newton QB Auburn Carolina Panthers 1 1
2010 Sam Bradford QB Oklahoma St. Louis Rams 2 0
2009 Matthew Stafford QB Georgia Detroit Lions 3 -
2008 Jake Long OT Michigan Miami Dolphins 4 4
2007 JaMarcus Russell QB LSU Oakland Raiders 3 0
2006 Mario Williams DE N. Carolina State Houston Texans 6 2
2005 Alex Smith QB Utah San Francisco 49ers 7 0
2004 Eli Manning QB Mississippi San Diego Chargers 8 2
2003 Carson Palmer QB Southern Cal. Cincinnati Bengals 9 2
2002 David Carr QB Fresno State Houston Texans 10 0
2001 Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech Atlanta Falcons 9 4
2000 Courtney Brown DE Penn State Cleveland Browns 7 0

So far only one of those guys is a perennial Pro Bowler. Of the QBs only Eli Manning has led his team to the Superbowl. And only Palmer has an MVP award. With this kind of track record the idea that tanking is worthwhile just doesn't make sense.

They wouldn't go 6-10 that was a best possible case scenario(and that would be 6-6 to close out the year not 6-4).

2012 Andrew Luck QB - Success
2011 Cam Newton QB - Success so far.
2010 Sam Bradford QB - Tough to say. But the consensus number 1 prospect Ndamukong Suh (Clowney of that year) is one of the best defensive players in the league.
2009 Matthew Stafford QB - Success
2008 Jake Long OT - 4x pro bowler.
2007 JaMarcus Russell - Bust. Davis reached on him. Consensus top 3 prospects (Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas and Adrian Peterson) are the best players at their position in the NFL.
2006 Mario Williams - Success. That franchise was terrible before he got their. He isn't the only reason for the turn around but he was a big part of it.
2005 Alex Smith QB - Fail. But he isn't terrible.
2004 Eli Manning QB - Obvious Success.
2003 Carson Palmer - I'd say Success.


Plus as I said it's not just about the 1st round pick. All of your picks will be higher. You can't just make a list of #1 picks and say "tanking doesn't work they should sign Freeman". I could make a list of the last 10 QBs cut mid season and show you that they all sucked and say "Freeman sucks they should tank".
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
1: The DE equivalent of Luck is not as valuable as Luck because he's a DE, not a QB.

2: Re-read the line you quoted first:Again: Clowney is not a quarterback.
A pass rusher is arguably the second most important position in football. Clowney is a special prospect.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
1: The DE equivalent of Luck is not as valuable as Luck because he's a DE, not a QB.

2: Re-read the line you quoted first:Again: Clowney is not a quarterback.



While QB is the most important position in the game, linemen are second most important. NFL teams pay a lot of money for quality defensive linemen, its the second highest paid position after QB. I would bet that several teams think the DE equivalent of Luck is worth tanking for.

Last edited by KeylessEntry : 10-03-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundMoundOfReb
They wouldn't go 6-10 that was a best possible case scenario(and that would be 6-6 to close out the year not 6-4).
I didn't think the math through carefully but thinking about it the first few games a QB runs in a completely new offense aren't going to be representative of what he can do for that team. But that said, if you want to tank then what do you care if they win less? Isn't that what you want?

Quote:
2012 Andrew Luck QB - Success
2011 Cam Newton QB - Success so far.
2010 Sam Bradford QB - Tough to say. But the consensus number 1 prospect Ndamukong Suh (Clowney of that year) is one of the best defensive players in the league.
2009 Matthew Stafford QB - Success
2008 Jake Long OT - 4x pro bowler.
2007 JaMarcus Russell - Bust. Davis reached on him. Consensus top 3 prospects (Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas and Adrian Peterson) are the best players at their position in the NFL.
2006 Mario Williams - Success. That franchise was terrible before he got their. He isn't the only reason for the turn around but he was a big part of it.
2005 Alex Smith QB - Fail. But he isn't terrible.
2004 Eli Manning QB - Obvious Success.
2003 Carson Palmer - I'd say Success.
So that means so far only 3 picks (Manning, Long, Palmer) have had great careers, the majority have fallen between good and average, and Russell, Carr and Brown have just been horrid. The overwhelming majority of them don't get picked #1 if their draft is redone. With this recent history I don't see how it's a good idea to ignore a potential long-term starting QB to make sure you have a better shot at #1 instead of the dire risk you draft #4 (or whatever).

Quote:
Plus as I said it's not just about the 1st round pick. All of your picks will be higher.
When you're down around the 100th pick of the night it's more about who has the better scouting department than it is who's #103 vs. 105.
Quote:
You can't just make a list of #1 picks and say "tanking doesn't work they should sign Freeman".
But I did, just not the way you describe. What I pointed out is that it normally doesn't get you the best player and there is a solid chance you will get a complete bust. So it's not worth it to waste taking a shot at a QB over "risking" 1 or 2 more wins. You're still likely to draft high.
Quote:
I could make a list of the last 10 QBs cut mid season and show you that they all sucked and say "Freeman sucks they should tank".
The thing is, Freeman has been as high as 6th in QB rating (2010) and twice landed in the teens. He's not great but he's 25 and has shown promise in the past. Why not give him a look? Because you might draft #2 instead of #1? That's just not a good enough reason.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
I didn't think the math through carefully but thinking about it the first few games a QB runs in a completely new offense aren't going to be representative of what he can do for that team. But that said, if you want to tank then what do you care if they win less? Isn't that what you want?

Yes but I want them to be truly terrible. Not just terrible enough to get the 6th overall pick like they would with Freeman. This(Jags) are a truly terrible team. Not even Peyton Manning could get them above 8-8/9-7 WITH A FULL YEAR. (As a Seahawk fan I can tell you Gus Bradley is terribly overrated as well).

Quote:
So that means so far only 3 picks (Manning, Long, Palmer) have had great careers, the majority have fallen between good and average, and Russell, Carr and Brown have just been horrid. The overwhelming majority of them don't get picked #1 if their draft is redone. With this recent history I don't see how it's a good idea to ignore a potential long-term starting QB to make sure you have a better shot at #1 instead of the dire risk you draft #4 (or whatever).

In the past 10 years the only sure fired bust Russell. You can debate Sam and Alex. That's still 70%-90% success rate.

Quote:
When you're down around the 100th pick of the night it's more about who has the better scouting department than it is who's #103 vs. 105. But I did, just not the way you describe. What I pointed out is that it normally doesn't get you the best player and there is a solid chance you will get a complete bust. So it's not worth it to waste taking a shot at a QB over "risking" 1 or 2 more wins. You're still likely to draft high. The thing is, Freeman has been as high as 6th in QB rating (2010) and twice landed in the teens. He's not great but he's 25 and has shown promise in the past. Why not give him a look? Because you might draft #2 instead of #1? That's just not a good enough reason.

Look, I'm not saying Freeman is TERRIBLE and doesn't belong in the league, in fact I really think Minnesota should sign him. He's better than Ponder and Cassel easily. Just shouldn't be the Jaguars. TV stations are having to apologize for airing their games. They NEED something to get excited about. A star. Teddy or Clowney. Why do you think they have been starting Gabbert even though Henne is clearly better (he still sucks as well)?

Also I don't think you realize the value rebuilding teams place on draft picks in the NFL. It's not the NBA where basically everyone outside the top10 is a role player. Eugene Monroe fetched a 4th and a 5th. Dude is borderline pro-bowl tackle and has played well this year. Freeman has been awful this year.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:46 AM   #28
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Can the bills pick him up? Manuel may not be healthy enough to play next week.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:56 AM   #29
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWINdyCity
Can the bills pick him up? Manuel may not be healthy enough to play next week.
They definitely should. That backup sucks.
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Old 10-04-2013, 08:03 AM   #30
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Default Re: Freeman released because the Bucs could not generate trade interest. Question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundMoundOfReb
In the past 10 years the only sure fired bust Russell. You can debate Sam and Alex. That's still 70%-90% success rate.
Not going to touch on everything because we're just rehashing old points. Just wanted to say that this "success rate"is based on counting every guy that stuck around and had an ok career a success. If the standard shifts more toward being the best player in the draft class it drops. One of my main points is that history shows you aren't guaranteed greatness with that #1 pick. It is not worth it to put the team and the fans through a horrible season if you can avoid it, and if Freeman can't save you from being terrible anyway you aren't losing much of the losing you value so much.
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