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Old 08-21-2013, 08:33 PM   #46
305Baller
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Choken One
Bill was on the most stacked team in NBA history. Impossible to say Russell is better for solely that reason(and he's not even close to KAJ anyway).

As for Wilt:
http://hoops-nation.com/community/to...-head-to-head/

That link will probably black out so I'll edit if it does.

Dude, I have Kareem as #2. Im just saying that there are arguments for both Wilt and Russell that exist for Kareem's spot. Russell being the greatest champion and Wilt handling Kareem early on before he got too old.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:35 PM   #47
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 305Baller
Dude, I have Kareem as #2. Im just saying that there are arguments for both Wilt and Russell that exist for Kareem's spot. Russell being the greatest champion and Wilt handling Kareem early on before he got too old.
Oh, ok. I'm happy then.

but seriously...Wilt never handled KAJ. Got handled himself if anything, but not really, more like a 50-50 draw honestly.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:37 PM   #48
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Choken One
Bill was on the most stacked team in NBA history. Impossible to say Russell is better for solely that reason(and he's not even close to KAJ anyway).

As for Wilt:
http://hoops-nation.com/community/to...-head-to-head/

That link will probably black out so I'll edit if it does.

Problem with that is, those Celtics teams were mediocre-to-poor on offense (and that's where most of those guys shined). They were just that good defensively.

Either way you're entitled to your opinion. I don't do these GOAT lists anyway. Kareem was a legendary player.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:39 PM   #49
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

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Originally Posted by kshutts1
I don't understand the "necessity" of a single, unanimous player.

Why not "tier" the lists? Players and positions and eras are so varied...



This right here. Someone with common sense. How can there be 1 GOAT in a team sport with different positions and roles?
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:46 PM   #50
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

I've generally always had him up there after really grilling his resume.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem

3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Kobe
9. Duncan

10. Hakeem
11. LeBron
12. Big O
13. Jerry West
14. Dr. J
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:05 PM   #51
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Choken One
Bill was on the most stacked team in NBA history. Impossible to say Russell is better for solely that reason(and he's not even close to KAJ anyway).

As for Wilt:
http://hoops-nation.com/community/to...-head-to-head/

That link will probably black out so I'll edit if it does.

As for Wilt, what? These are the stats that a young, statistically prime Kareem produced against an older, past prime Wilt. Which doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to give 30+ to a prime Wilt, but Wilt would score tons against Kareem too, as he did against everyone else - especially when it's established that Kareem wasn't known for keeping Wilt significantly below his scoring averages (sometimes not below his averages at all).
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:18 PM   #52
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

I will always have Kareem among the GOAT ( Kareem-1a, Jordan-1b, Wilt -1c)...until Lebron just blows the doors off the whole debate. But Kareem was just a product of the era; lack of tv exposure and media hype, he hated doing interviews, plus he was outspoken on racial issues, and during those times (60s and 70s) that was a big Folks wanted you to be hush-hush on those issues. I look at Bill Walton and his actions about the Vietnam War. The dude caught no flack for that. Can you imagine if Kareem was outspoken on the Vietnam War. But I have Kareem high up on my list of GOAT.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:38 AM   #53
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

The thing that makes it hard to assess Kareem v Jordan is that Jordan condensed his accomplishments into a short period of unequaled (and will probably never be equalled) dominance, whereas Kareem did it consistently forever. I think Jordan tends to get the nod because that intense period of domination stands out more than consistent greatness.

I personally think longevity, and not just any longevity, Kareem dominated excellent centres at 40, including in the post-season, plus playing against several other top 10 players means Kareem deserves to be at least Jordan's equal.

It's ridiculous that people think LeBron is anywhere near either of them at this point. He needs to either play at the level he is currently playing at for at least another 6-8 years (probably more) or win 4 rings in the next 5-6 seasons. Otherwise his ceiling will be the second tier with Magic, Bird and co.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:55 AM   #54
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. LeBron
11. Kobe

Kareem has the best case for GOAT after MJ and can definitely be argued above him.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:34 AM   #55
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

KAJ's resume certainly has a case for GOAT. But let's not blow it out of proportion.

As the main man, in the 70's, his team's generally under-achieved, and even moreso in the post-season. Playing on three teams that won 60+ games in that era, he went to one Final, and won one ring. He also played on two more teams that won 59 and 56 games, with one team getting routed in the ECF's, and the other losing in the Finals with HCA. Finally, he played on another team that had the best record in the league, and was swept in the WCF's by a team that went 49-33.

In addition, he played on two straight rosters that featured Jamall Wilkes, Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, and an Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him.) Those two teams could only go 45-37 and 47-35, and were pounded in the post-season by Seattle teams that went 47-35 and 50-32, and only had one borderlin HOF player.

Furthermore, he played on two teams that failed to make the playoffs...this in a era, from '74 thru '79, that was among the worst in NBA history for championship teams. Hell, Rick Barry with Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, was able to win a title with a 48-34 team, while KAJ, ad Wilkes, with a FAR more talented roster were getting blown out in the playoffs in two straight seasons in which the eventual champion would go 44-38 and 50-32.

And his title run in '71 was nothing to brag about either. His Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, his Bucks beat a 48-34 Lakers team, in a series in which Chamberlain, at the very least, battled him to a statistical draw (and many claimed Chamberlain outplayed him), all while Wilt's two best teammates, West and Baylor, missed the entire playoffs. And in the Finals, KAJ's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team.

True, after Magic arrived, KAJ would go on to play in eight more Finals, and get five more rings, but Magic was the man who directed those Laker teams (and they also had a prime Worthy for five Finals, and three rings.)

In fact, take a look at the Lakers before Magic's arrival. Once again, with the most stacked rosters in the league, they badly under-performed, and were playoff busts.

Magic arrived, and boom...a 60-22 title team season. And in that title run, they blew out a Sonics team that had routed KAJ's Lakers the two years before. Then, in the Finals, Kareem sprains his ankle in game five, and went home to watch game six on TV. Magic, on the road, led LA to a clinching win, with perhaps the greatest game in Finals' history.

During the Magic-KAJ era, the Lakers would go to eight Finals, and win five. KAJ was certainly a key factor in the first three title runs, and he even won a deserved FMVP in '85 (however, Magic was LA's post-season MVP that season.) After that, he was arguably only the Lakers third best player in the '87 run, and the Lakers won a title in '88 DESPITE him (he was simply awful in that post-season...and even worse in the Finals.)

And in the '89 post-season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals against the Pistons, but had lost Byron Scott and his 20 ppg in the WCF's. Then, in a tie game in game two, Magic went down, and was basically done for the series. The Lakers, with no help from KAJ, were swept.

Kareem retired after that season, and what happened next? The Lakers IMPROVED to a 63-19 record, which was their second best record in the Magic era. And in Magic's final season, (not counting his part-time comeback a few years later), he led a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

Magic "retired" after that season, and the Lakers immediatly plummetted to records of 43-39, and 39-43, and were done. They were essentially playing at near the same levels that they had achieved before Magic arrived.

Continued...
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:46 AM   #56
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
KAJ's resume certainly has a case for GOAT. But let's not blow it out of proportion.

As the main man, in the 70's, his team's generally under-achieved, and even moreso in the post-season. Playing on three teams that won 60+ games in that era, he went to one Final, and won one ring. He also played on two more teams that won 59 and 56 games, with one team getting routed in the ECF's, and the other losing in the Finals with HCA. Finally, he played on another team that had the best record in the league, and was swept in the WCF's by a team that went 49-33.

In addition, he played on two straight rosters that featured Jamall Wilkes, Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, and an Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him.) Those two teams could only go 45-37 and 47-35, and were pounded in the post-season by Seattle teams that went 47-35 and 50-32, and only had one borderlin HOF player.

Furthermore, he played on two teams that failed to make the playoffs...this in a era, from '74 thru '79, that was among the worst in NBA history for championship teams. Hell, Rick Barry with Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, was able to win a title with a 48-34 team, while KAJ, ad Wilkes, with a FAR more talented roster were getting blown out in the playoffs in two straight seasons in which the eventual champion would go 44-38 and 50-32.

And his title run in '71 was nothing to brag about either. His Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, his Bucks beat a 48-34 Lakers team, in a series in which Chamberlain, at the very least, battled him to a statistical draw (and many claimed Chamberlain outplayed him), all while Wilt's two best teammates, West and Baylor, missed the entire playoffs. And in the Finals, KAJ's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team.

True, after Magic arrived, KAJ would go on to play in eight more Finals, and get five more rings, but Magic was the man who directed those Laker teams (and they also had a prime Worthy for five Finals, and three rings.)

In fact, take a look at the Lakers before Magic's arrival. Once again, with the most stacked rosters in the league, they badly under-performed, and were playoff busts.

Magic arrived, and boom...a 60-22 title team season. And in that title run, they blew out a Sonics team that had routed KAJ's Lakers the two years before. Then, in the Finals, Kareem sprains his ankle in game five, and went home to watch game six on TV. Magic, on the road, led LA to a clinching win, with perhaps the greatest game in Finals' history.

During the Magic-KAJ era, the Lakers would go to eight Finals, and win five. KAJ was certainly a key factor in the first three title runs, and he even won a deserved FMVP in '85 (however, Magic was LA's post-season MVP that season.) After that, he was arguably only the Lakers third best player in the '87 run, and the Lakers won a title in '88 DESPITE him (he was simply awful in that post-season...and even worse in the Finals.)

And in the '89 post-season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals against the Pistons, but had lost Byron Scott and his 20 ppg in the WCF's. Then, in a tie game in game two, Magic went down, and was basically done for the series. The Lakers, with no help from KAJ, were swept.

Kareem retired after that season, and what happened next? The Lakers IMPROVED to a 63-19 record, which was their second best record in the Magic era. And in Magic's final season, (not counting his part-time comeback a few years later), he led a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

Magic "retired" after that season, and the Lakers immediatly plummetted to records of 43-39, and 39-43, and were done. They were essentially playing at near the same levels that they had achieved before Magic arrived.

Continued...

Well written, but honestly looking at the history of the league you will find that you need more than a dominant center to win. Shaq knows this, I know this and you bet mother****ing KAJ knows it.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:59 AM   #57
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
KAJ's resume certainly has a case for GOAT. But let's not blow it out of proportion.

As the main man, in the 70's, his team's generally under-achieved, and even moreso in the post-season. Playing on three teams that won 60+ games in that era, he went to one Final, and won one ring. He also played on two more teams that won 59 and 56 games, with one team getting routed in the ECF's, and the other losing in the Finals with HCA. Finally, he played on another team that had the best record in the league, and was swept in the WCF's by a team that went 49-33.

In addition, he played on two straight rosters that featured Jamall Wilkes, Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, and an Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him.) Those two teams could only go 45-37 and 47-35, and were pounded in the post-season by Seattle teams that went 47-35 and 50-32, and only had one borderlin HOF player.

Furthermore, he played on two teams that failed to make the playoffs...this in a era, from '74 thru '79, that was among the worst in NBA history for championship teams. Hell, Rick Barry with Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, was able to win a title with a 48-34 team, while KAJ, ad Wilkes, with a FAR more talented roster were getting blown out in the playoffs in two straight seasons in which the eventual champion would go 44-38 and 50-32.

And his title run in '71 was nothing to brag about either. His Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, his Bucks beat a 48-34 Lakers team, in a series in which Chamberlain, at the very least, battled him to a statistical draw (and many claimed Chamberlain outplayed him), all while Wilt's two best teammates, West and Baylor, missed the entire playoffs. And in the Finals, KAJ's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team.

True, after Magic arrived, KAJ would go on to play in eight more Finals, and get five more rings, but Magic was the man who directed those Laker teams (and they also had a prime Worthy for five Finals, and three rings.)

In fact, take a look at the Lakers before Magic's arrival. Once again, with the most stacked rosters in the league, they badly under-performed, and were playoff busts.

Magic arrived, and boom...a 60-22 title team season. And in that title run, they blew out a Sonics team that had routed KAJ's Lakers the two years before. Then, in the Finals, Kareem sprains his ankle in game five, and went home to watch game six on TV. Magic, on the road, led LA to a clinching win, with perhaps the greatest game in Finals' history.

During the Magic-KAJ era, the Lakers would go to eight Finals, and win five. KAJ was certainly a key factor in the first three title runs, and he even won a deserved FMVP in '85 (however, Magic was LA's post-season MVP that season.) After that, he was arguably only the Lakers third best player in the '87 run, and the Lakers won a title in '88 DESPITE him (he was simply awful in that post-season...and even worse in the Finals.)

And in the '89 post-season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals against the Pistons, but had lost Byron Scott and his 20 ppg in the WCF's. Then, in a tie game in game two, Magic went down, and was basically done for the series. The Lakers, with no help from KAJ, were swept.

Kareem retired after that season, and what happened next? The Lakers IMPROVED to a 63-19 record, which was their second best record in the Magic era. And in Magic's final season, (not counting his part-time comeback a few years later), he led a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

Magic "retired" after that season, and the Lakers immediatly plummetted to records of 43-39, and 39-43, and were done. They were essentially playing at near the same levels that they had achieved before Magic arrived.

Continued...

Bucks were a 27-wins team in 1969, then removing some guys, adding some, but the main player in all of that was Kareem, they were up to 56 wins. Title in '71 with Flynn Robinson gone, past-his-prime (still really good though) Oscar in.

Lakers were terrible before he got there, 30 wins or so, then getting to 40, in '77 he took them to 53 wins and the WCF with some average teammates at best.

Lou Hudson was way past his prime, Dantley was a bad teammate, a blackhole and couldn't care less about playing D, Nixon really good but not all that and his D was suspect.

Magic arrived and boom? Acting like he was their best player (not even clear 2nd best player) or something, or that Kareem wasn't their leader and much better, plus Nixon was the main PG at that point. He wasn't doing the same as Bird let's say.
Also, let's not forget that they got rid of Dantley while adding Chones and Haywood, and Coop was playing for the first time after spending his rookie season out with injury... factors as well.
Kareem was putting up 31.9/12.1/3.1/1.1/3.9 on .611 TS%, and even better in the Finals, that FMVP belongs to him.
Plus Jabbar still had some great years after that, Magic wasn't the clear main man or the leader at that time or close after... Hell, Kareem was having one of the best Finals performances ever at 37 in 1985.

Now you're faulting a player almost in his 40's for being the 3rd best player, with Magic and Worthy on the team= Talking about the Lakers improving after 41 years old Kareem retired

Let's just downgrade Kareem for Magic's sake though. I see you do that type of stuff in Magic's favor a whole lot.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:50 AM   #58
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Continuing...

Was Kareem a greater player than Chamberlain?

First of all, KAJ played four years IN the Wilt-era. Unfortunately for Chamberlain, all four of them occurred when he blew his knee out. Having said that, though, the two did meet for one game in that 69-70 season, and before Wilt's injury, and Chamberlain thoroughly outplayed Kareem in
every aspect of the game.

Furthermore, many uneducated fans believe that Wilt had lost his scoring ability based upon the fact that, from '66-67 thru 68-69, he had "only" averaged 24.1 ppg, 24.3 ppg, and then 20.5 ppg. However, in those first two seasons, it was by design, and in that third season, it was because of an incompetent coach. Chamberlain STILL put up the highest scoring games in each of those three seasons (58 in '67, games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 in '68, and games of 60 and 66 in '69.) AND, his new coach in the 69-70 season had changed the Laker offensive focus, to Wilt, and in the first nine games of the season, he was leading the league at 32.2 ppg (on .579 shooting), with games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points. Keep in mind that this was KAJ's rookie season (and he would average 28.8 ppg that year.) Here again, though, Chamberlain shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same offensive force again.

KAJ would certainly outscore Chamberlain in their 27 other h2h games, but he was held way below his normal FG%'s, and was outrebounded. Over the course of their 28 h2h games, Kareem shot .464 (which was a mile beneath his career FG% of .559.) And in fact, in their last ten straight h2h's, Chamberlain held a prime KAJ to .434 shooting.

But let's keep that in it's proper perspective. This was an old Chamberlain, and playing on a knee that had major surgery.

But let's take a closer look at what a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain accomplished against several of the SAME centers that a prime Kareem would also face later on.

A prime Chamberlain faced Willis Reed in nine h2h games in the 64-65 season. In those nine games, Wilt averaged 40.1 ppg, which included games in which he outscored Reed by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28. KAJ would face Reed in some 20 games, and his high game against him was 41 points.

A near-prime Chamberlain put up a game of 60 points on Connie Dierking in the 68-69 season, which was just the year before KAJ arrved. And before that, he had several 50+ points games against him, including one game in which he outscored him, 56-4. KAJ's igh game against Dierking was 41 points. Incidently, Dierking had a couple of games in which he outscored Kareem.

A near-prime Chamberlain hung a 66 point game on Jim Fox (on an unfathomable 29-35 shooting performance), and in a season just the year before KAJ arrived. Kareem's high game against Fox, in some 20 h2h's...40 points.

How about Darrall Imhoff? Imhoff fouled out in his 100 point game. And, in their very next encounter a couple of days later, Imhoff received a standing ovation for "holding" Wilt to "only" 58 points. I won't bother looking up KAJ's high game against Imhoff. Given the fact that KAJ's career high game was 55 points, it won't matter.

Nate Thurmond? A prime KAJ and Nate met in some 40 career h2h games. Kareem scored 30+ points against Nate in seven of them, with a high game of 34 points. In fact, he shot at a .440 clip against Thurmond in those 40 h2h's, and scored under 20 points in another seven. In their three playoff series' h2h's, KAJ shot .486, .428, and an unbelieveable .405 (in a series in which Thurmond outscored and outshot him.)

A prime "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in about a dozen games. After that, Wilt dramatically cut back his shooting against everyone. But, in a span of 11 straight games, dating from their last h2h in the 64-65 season, thru nine h2h's in the 65-66 season, and their very first h2h in the 66-67 season, Wilt averaged 30 ppg, which included six games of 30+, (games of 30, 33, 33, 34, 38, and 45 points.) In fact, Wilt outscored Nate by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and a staggering 45-13 in those h2h's. Oh, and in their three playoff series' h2h's, Wilt outshot Nate by margins of .500-.392, .550-.398, and an ee-popping .560-.343 (and that was in Thurmond's greatest season BTW.)

Walt Bellamy? First of all, KAJ and Bells went at it in 25 career h2h's. Kareem's high game against Bellamy was 39 points. And there were games in which Bellamy outscored him.

How about a prime Wilt against Bellamy? It all began in their first meeting, when Chamberlain outscored Bells by a 52-14 margin. Over the course of 20 straight h2h games, from their 61-62 and 62-63 h2h's, Wilt AVERAGED 48 ppg against Bellamy. Included were FOUR games of 60+, with a high game of 73 (on 29-48 shooting, and in which Wilt grabbed 36 rebounds.) Hell, Chamberlain was still averaging 33 ppg against Bellamy in their 65-66 season h2h's, which included yet another 50+ pont game. Even as late as the '68 playoffs, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy by a 25-20 ppg margin in that series, while outshooting him by a .584to .421 margin. There has probably never ever been a more dominant h2h between two HOF players in NBA history.


Once again, Kareem's career high game, in 20 seasons, was 55 points. Just the year before KAJ arrived, Chamberlain had TWO games of 60+. And a prime Wilt had 32 games of 60+...in an era in which the rest of the NBA had a total of FIVE, COMBINED, in his 14 seasons.

Even in terms of winning...the two played in the league for years, and while each won one ring, Wilt held a 3-1 edge in Finals appearances.


And I always found this fascinating...

In Chamberlain's 62-63 season, and playing with an awful roster, Wilt averaged 47.6 mpg, scored 44.8 ppg, shot a then-record .528 from the field, and led the NBA in rebounding at 24.3 rpg. In fact, he led the league in Win-Shares, and had the highest PER season in NBA history (31.8 .)

And before someone should suggest that Wilt was "stats-padding" that season, based on a team record of 31-49...that team lost 35 games by single digits, and had a-2.1 ppg differential. And the very next season, Chamberlain would take essentially the same roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. And in Wilt's last great scoring season, in 65-66, he would lead the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; lead the league in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; and set a then-record mark of a .540 FG% (as well as handing out 5.2 apg), on a team that would have the best record in the league.

Then, think about this:

In KAJ's 71-72 season, he averaged a career high 44.2 mpg; led the league in scoring, at 34.8 ppg; averaged 16.0 rpg; and shot .574 from the field. This, while playing on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. Talk about "stats-padding."

Then, in Kareem's 75-76 season, he was traded to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 the year before. Now, here was Kareem's chance to really show what a force he could have been. If ever there was an opportunity to challenge some of Wilt's scoring records, this would have been the season. Instead, Kareem only played 41.2 mpg, and his scoring dropped to 27.7 ppg, while his FG% declined to a .529 mark. And his team went 40-42 and failed to make the playoffs. Even more ridiculous, was the fact that Kareem beat out Bob McAdoo for the league MVP, despite McAdoo not only having a better season, but doing so on a winning team.

The facts were...the only area where KAJ had any edge over Wilt, was in FT shooting. And even that was tempered by the fact that Wilt averaged 432 MADE per season in his career, while KAJ averaged 335 MADE in his.

Chamberlain, in his scoring prime, was a considerably better scorer. A prime Chamberlain shot much better from the field. Chamberlain was a better rebounder h2h, and while the two played in the league, ...and this was not even a prime Wilt. A prime Wilt had two seasons in which he averaged more assists than KAJ ever did, and while they both had three seasons of 5+, Wilt had two of 8 and 9. And Wilt was acknowledged as a better defender while the two were playingin the league together. And Chamberlain was clearly a better shot-blocker, even well past his prime.

Continued...

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 08-22-2013 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:51 AM   #59
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

Continuing...

How about post-season "choke jobs?"

In KAJ's rookie season, his 56-26 Bucks, in a series in which he played well, were wiped out by the Knicks in the ECF's. However, in the clinching game five defeat, Reed outscored KAJ, 32-27, en route to leading the Knicks to a 132-96 win.

In Kareem's 71-72 season, which was the greatest statistical season of his career, he was manhandled by Thurmond in the first round of the playoffs, but his teammates badly outplayed the 51-31 Warriors, and they escaped with a 4-1 series win. Then, in the WCF's, Kareem would shoot .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games, three of them defeats, and was badly outplayed by Wilt in the clinching game six loss, at home.

In the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, Kareem led his heavily-favored 60-22 Bucks down in flames against a 47-35 Warrior team, in a series in which Thurmond held him to .428 shooting. Meanwhile, Chamberlain crushed Thurmond in the WCF's, in leading his 60-22 Lakers to a 4-1 series romp over Nate's Warriors.

In game seven of the 73-74 Finals, and on his home court, KAJ is outscored, ourebounded, and outshot by the 6-9 Dave Cowens, and his Bucks are blown out.

Oscar retired after that series, and the Bucks fall to a 38-44 record, and fail to make the playoffs. The 48-34 Warrior win the title.

Kareem is traded to the Lakers the next season, and LA can only go 40-42, and they too, fail to make the playoffs.

Kareem plays brilliantly in the '77 WCF's, but Walton battles him to a draw in the last two games, as the 49-33 Blazers sweep the Kareem's 53-29 Lakers.

In the 77-78 season,and playing with the most stacked roster in the league, KAJ's 45-37 Lakers are beaten in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team with one borderline HOF player. A 44-38 Bullets team wins the Finals.

In the 78-79 post-season, the 50-32 Sonics just blow away Kareem's 47-35 in the second round of the playoffs. ThoseSonics go on to win the title.

I already mentioned Kareem missing the clinching game six win in the '80 Finals, in a game in which Magic played perhaps the greatest Finals game in NBA history.

KAJ is outplayed by Moses in the first round of the '81 playoffs, and the result is a shocking series win by the 40-42 Rockets over KAJ's 54-28 Lakers.

Magic puts up a near triple-double playoffs in '82, and easily wins his second FMVP, while Kareem played no better than teammate Bob MAdoo, who played significantly less minutes.

KAJ is brutalized by Moses in the '83 Finals, and his Lakers are swept.

During the '85-86 regular season, KAJ just murders Hakeem in their five h2h games, averaging 33 ppg on .630 shooting. However, Fitch puts Sampson on KAJ in the WCF's, and Kareem drops to 27 ppg on .496 shooting, and his heavily-favored Lakers are stunnd by the Rockets, 4-1.

Kareem becomes LA's "third-wheel" in their '87 title run.

In the Lakers '88 title run, KAJ is simply awful, and plays even worse in the Finals (13 ppg, 4 rpg, and on .414 shooting...with the worst game seven by a GOAT candidate ever.)

And in KAJ's last post-season, Magic is injured in the Finals, and without him, and with KAJ just a shell, the Lakers are swept.

Kareem retires following that season, and the Lakers IMPROVE to a 63-19 record.


Once again, KAJ's resume is one of the greatest ever...but it had it's share of flaws.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:00 AM   #60
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Default Re: Who has Kareem Abdul Jabbar as the GOAT in basketball?

One other aspect that is often overlooked in these KAJ topics...

the man was just dominated by the 6-10 Moses Malone in their 40 career h2h's...

Quote:
How great was Moses Malone? The 6-10 center faced the 7-2 Kareem in 40 total games from the 76-77 season, thru Kareem's last season in 88-89.

Some here claim that Kareem's peak was in that 76-77 season, although I strongly believe that the most dominant Kareem played in the early 70's. His statistical peak came in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons.

Kareem was 29 in the 76-77 season, while Moses was 21. However, Moses jumped right to the ABA at age 19, so he was already in his third professional season by the time the two first met.

Now, granted, the two probably did not exclusively defend each other in every game, nor were they on the floor at the same time in portions of those games.

There are several interesting aspects to this "rivalry." I am only posting the known stats that I could find, and perhaps there are some here who can provide even more info. I did come up with every one of their scoring H2H's, all 40 of them. However, I could only find their FG%'s and rebounding numbers in their last 16 games.

And overall, Kareem team's went 21-19 against Moses, which was surprising, since Kareem played with much more talented teams in nearly all of their 13 seasons in the league together. In facr, Moses only played on ONE team that ever had a better record than Kareem, in those 13 seasons.

However, while Kareem's teams enjoyed 20-13 margin in their regular season H2H's, Moses' team went 6-1 against Kareem's in the post-season. BTW, Kareem's team's were often leveled in the post-season, despite having better regular season records. Included in those post-season H2H's, was the 80-81 Rockets, at 40-42, beating Kareem's 54-28 (Magic was injured and missed 37 games that season), 2-1 in the first round of the playoffs. And, of course, Moses' 82-83 Sixers, which went 65-17 swept Kareem's 58-24 Lakers, 4-0. That was the ONLY season in which Moses had a more talented roster, and they were clearly better, going a combined 6-0 against Kareem's team in the overall season. However, Kareem did miss one of their regular season H2H's that year, so Moses only went 5-0 against him that year.

How about their personal battles? While a much more prime Kareem, at age 29, outscored the 21 year old Moses in their first year H2H's, it was not a dramatic difference. Kareem outscored him in three of their four games, but his high game was only 29 points. And, by their fourth game that season, Moses outscored Kareem, 26-23.

Another interesting aspect was that while both players started declining somewhat after the 84-85 season, Moses' decline was sharper. Still. Moses generally outplayed Kareem even after that. But, Moses was not the dominant player that he was from the 78-79 season thru the 84-85 season.

And while Kareem won the MVP award in the 79-80 season, Moses was probably already the better player. In the 78-79 season, a 23 year old Moses exploded, and averaged 24.8 ppg, on .540 shooting, with an astonishing 17.6 rpg average (winning the rebounding title by nearly 5 per game.) Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, and shot .577. In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 24.8 ppg, on a sensational .604 shooting, but was on a severe decline in the rebounding department, only getting 10.8 rpg. Meanwhile, Moses was at 25.8 ppg, .502 shooting, and grabbing 14.5 rpg. BUT, H2H in that Kareem MVP season, Moses DRAMATICALLY outscored Kareem, by an average margin of 30 ppg to 20 ppg. And, I have no doubt that he probably dominated Kareem on the glass, as well.

From that 79-80 season, on, Moses was CLEARLY the better player. While Kareem's numbers continued to decline, Moses jusr DOMINATED the league. From the 80-81 season thru the 82-83 season, Moses was THE best player in the league (sorry Larry and Magic, but Moses was UNSTOPPABLE.) He LED the league in rebounding EVERY season in five straight seasons, and and scoring seasons as high as 27.8 ppg, and even 31.1 ppg.

And, the Kareem-Moses H2H's, from the 79-80 thru the 82-83 seasons reflected Moses COMPLETE DOMINATION of Kareem, as well.

After that, both declined, and while Moses generally outplayed Kareem, neither were putting up spectacular numbers.

In any case, in their 40 H2H games, Moses held a staggering 25-12-3 margin in their scoring battles. Not only that, but in their 7 playoff games, Moses enjoyed a solid 5-2 edge. And, Moses held a whopping 11-6 margin in 30+ point games against Kareem.

Kareem's two highest games against Moses were 34 and 36. Meanwhile, Moses had games of 34, 34, 35, 36, 37, 37, 38, and 39 against Kareem. And in their post-season H2H's, Moses held a 2-1 edge in 30+ point games (Kareem's high was 32, while Moses had games of 33, and even 38 in their playoff battles.)

Rebounding? As expected, Moses just CRUSHED Kareem on the glass. In the known 16 games in which I could find their rebounding totals, Moses went an unbelieveable 16-0 against Kareem. And some were by HUGE margins. For instance, in the '83 Finals, Moses not only outrebounded Kareem, 4-0, he held a MASSIVE 18-8 rpg differential.

Not only that, but given the fact that Moses was a better rebounder in EVERY season in their 13 years in the league together, there was a very good chance that Moses won the VAST MAJORITY of their rebounding H2H's. I wouldn't be surprised if the overall margin was something like a 35-5 edge (or maybe even higher.)

Kareem did SLIGHTLY outshoot Moses from the floor in those 16 H2H games, but it was very close, and overall, Kareem shot .523 in those 16 games (again, from the 82-83 season thru the 88-89 season.) Moses shot .472 overall in those last 16 H2H games.

All of which is interesting. For instance, in Kareem's 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, against Moses, he averaged 22 ppg on .513 shooting from the field against Moses in their four H2H's. Against a 22 and 23 year old Hakeem, in those two seasons, and covering 10 H2H games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on a mind-boggling .630 shooting. Meanwhile, Moses averaged 23 ppg on .484 shooting against Kareem, all while outrebounding him by an average differential of 12-5 rpg.

So, for those that question Moses's defense, they had better take a closer look. He was clearly a FORCE against Kareem. Once again, Moses' dodged Kareem's truly dominant seasons ('71-73), but even a young Moses was a near match for a near prime Kareem. And a PRIME Moses just ABUSED an older Kareem (even in a Kareem MVP season in 79-80.)

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 08-22-2013 at 03:03 AM.
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