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Old 08-21-2013, 02:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

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Originally Posted by poido123
Kobe's peak is top 8 all time at the least.

When looking at a players peak together with their resume, it's hard to leave Kobe Bryant out of the top 10, irrespective of how much you dislike him.

Hell no.

I can list 8 right now off the bat that are better, and comfortably for that matter.
Bird, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem and Russell.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Lebron's a small forward so it is understandable that he looks up to guys who have played the same position in the past. His list makes sense from that perspective. With the exception of MJ, the rest are guys who are about his size and roughly play his position, Magic included.

Props to Lebron!
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

MJ, Kareem, Dr J?

I guess Lebron gets bumped down more. @ 14 or 15 now
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Notice how he's not listing any bigmen. In fact he's only listing players that he's been directly compared to. He might be creating a narrative for himself in which he's a combination of these 4 players.

I will say that Dr. J is underrated. He's often associated with his 80s, when really he was arguably the best player of the 70s not named Jabbar, and certainly the best non bigman of the 70s, the most underappreciated era of the NBA.

If you combine his ABA and NBA resume, he's a 16 time All-Star, 4 time MVP, and 3 time champion. How many players in history have 4 MVPs and 3 championships or more? Off the top of my head, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Dr. J. Mikan would've been on that list if they'd awarded MVPs at the time. So if awards were your main criterion for ranking players, Dr. J would have a reasonable case for top 5.

Not only that, but Dr. J led the ABA in scoring 3 years, had averages like 32/12/4 and 29/11/5 with 2.5 steals AND blocks, + 50% shooting. He was top 10, in fact almost top 5, in scoring, rebounding and assists, steals, blocks, TS% and EFG%... all at the same time, for several years. Obviously he was also an advanced stats monster.

His playoff stats were even more ridiculous: in his first season he averaged 33 points, 20 rebounds and 6.5 assists (!) over 11 games. In his fifth season, 35 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists, with 2 steals and blocks as well as 53% shooting.

We've all seen how aesthetically-pleasing his game was, and how athletic he was... what gets lost is his incredible dominance as an all-around player. You can watch his performance in the 77 Finals, or even in some games against Larry Bird, to see just how good he was.

But beyond Julius Erving, LeBron's top 3 reminds us that the "consensus top 10" of bball geeks on forum such as this one really aren't a "consensus"... at all. For instance, if you ask the media, former players, or specialists, Hakeem is almost never in the top 10. Oscar Robertson almost always is, sometimes in the top 5. You'll see names like Dr. J and Jerry West far more often. Some will mention Mikan. The point is, there are many more potential ways to rank players than some here think. And it's not just players, it would be the same with say, a list of the great composers, writers, or generals in history.

Last edited by BoutPractice : 08-21-2013 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

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Originally Posted by plowking
Hell no.

I can list 8 right now off the bat that are better, and comfortably for that matter.
Bird, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem and Russell.

Peak WITH resume is superior to Hakeem, I'd give peak Hakeem and the way he won his title a slight edge, but then you look at the whole body of work and Kobe gets the overall edge.

1 ring for Hakeem separates him from Kobe but not the only reason.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

we all know lebron is an uneducated individual. noteworthy are the stories of him asking for already-cut spaghetti in a Italian restaurant, and overcooked meat on a prestigious steak one..

it doesn't surprise me one bit he doesn't know shit about the very sport he plays
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:12 AM   #22
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

dp

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Old 08-21-2013, 06:19 AM   #23
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

He said Jordan without hesitation but then took a while to come up with the second name.

I think Dr. J is underrated on this board, but that's probably ranking him a bit too high. I think LeBron would tend to favor wing players though and Dr. J certainly was a revolutionary player from the POV of advancing the athletic wing player prototype.

If Jordan is your no.1 by far, then there is some logic to Dr. J being no.2, because he paved the way for MJ in some ways.

Bird at 3 is a good choice IMO.
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:23 AM   #24
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Different strokes for different folks... Maybe he focused on skill instead of accolades... I never seen dr.j ball outside of a few games so I can't really speak on his game
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:29 AM   #25
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Probably not coincidentally the two jersey numbers that LeBron has worn in the NBA are no.23 and no.6 (Dr. J's number).
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:01 AM   #26
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Jabbar
we all know lebron is an uneducated individual. noteworthy are the stories of him asking for already-cut spaghetti in a Italian restaurant, and overcooked meat on a prestigious steak one..

it doesn't surprise me one bit he doesn't know shit about the very sport he plays

This.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by #number6ix#
Different strokes for different folks... Maybe he focused on skill instead of accolades... I never seen dr.j ball outside of a few games so I can't really speak on his game
Actually it might be the opposite. I just showed that Dr. J has top 5 worthy accolades if you factor in the ABA: 4 MVPs and 3 championships. He was also individually dominant and the clear cut best player in his league, but it's the accolades that first make him stand out.

The NBA we have today is the product of a merger between the ABA and the NBA... The Spurs, for example, were an ABA team and yet are seen as one of the greatest NBA franchises of all time. Ever since the merger, when we talk about NBA history, we have to include the ABA as well. That's why players like Artis Gilmore should have been in the HOF sooner.

Last edited by BoutPractice : 08-21-2013 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:53 AM   #28
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Right, Dr.J is top-3, yet LeBron wanted to change his number to 6 in order to create his own legacy. The value of such opinions...
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:27 AM   #29
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

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It seems as if the litmus test for greatness for basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and players) is often different from that of fans. While as fans we go back and look at career accomplishments (i.e. how many MVPs, championships, "was he 'the man' for those championships", all star selections, stats titles, etc.), basketball personalities tend to look at the greats and judge by perceived talent and performance. The fact that legend X has 1 more MVP and 2 more rings than legend Y doesn't mean as much to them in the debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then assess greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

..
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoutPractice
Notice how he's not listing any bigmen. In fact he's only listing players that he's been directly compared to. He might be creating a narrative for himself in which he's a combination of these 4 players.

I will say that Dr. J is underrated. He's often associated with his 80s, when really he was arguably the best player of the 70s not named Jabbar, and certainly the best non bigman of the 70s, the most underappreciated era of the NBA.

If you combine his ABA and NBA resume, he's a 16 time All-Star, 4 time MVP, and 3 time champion. How many players in history have 4 MVPs and 3 championships or more? Off the top of my head, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Dr. J. Mikan would've been on that list if they'd awarded MVPs at the time. So if awards were your main criterion for ranking players, Dr. J would have a reasonable case for top 5.

Not only that, but Dr. J led the ABA in scoring 3 years, had averages like 32/12/4 and 29/11/5 with 2.5 steals AND blocks, + 50% shooting. He was top 10, in fact almost top 5, in scoring, rebounding and assists, steals, blocks, TS% and EFG%... all at the same time, for several years. Obviously he was also an advanced stats monster.

His playoff stats were even more ridiculous: in his first season he averaged 33 points, 20 rebounds and 6.5 assists (!) over 11 games. In his fifth season, 35 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists, with 2 steals and blocks as well as 53% shooting.

We've all seen how aesthetically-pleasing his game was, and how athletic he was... what gets lost is his incredible dominance as an all-around player. You can watch his performance in the 77 Finals, or even in some games against Larry Bird, to see just how good he was.

But beyond Julius Erving, LeBron's top 3 reminds us that the "consensus top 10" of bball geeks on forum such as this one really aren't a "consensus"... at all. For instance, if you ask the media, former players, or specialists, Hakeem is almost never in the top 10. Oscar Robertson almost always is, sometimes in the top 5. You'll see names like Dr. J and Jerry West far more often. Some will mention Mikan. The point is, there are many more potential ways to rank players than some here think. And it's not just players, it would be the same with say, a list of the great composers, writers, or generals in history.
Thank you. Couldn't have put it better myself. For those who believe in nba superiority over the aba, i have one question: who would win ? The 1976 aba champ nets or the nba champ celtics?
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