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Old 08-21-2013, 07:39 AM   #91
havoc33
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
First of all, you're really underrating those Knicks, second of all, Derrick Rose did have one of the best supporting casts in 2011. Jordan clearly had the better 2nd option, but the game isn't played 2 on 2. The top 3 players out of the two teams in 92 and 93 were clearly Jordan, Ewing, Pippen, but after that, in 92 you could argue that the Knicks had 5 of the next 6 best players in Starks, Jackson, Xavier, Oakley, and Mason and in 93 you could argue that they had 4 of the next 5 best players in Starks, Oakley, Mason, Rivers. All of those players I mentioned made all star games at some point of their career and at that time on the Knicks were in their mid-20s to early-30s, the most relevant ages for most players at the time. After the top 2 players, the Knicks were clearly a better and more talented team. Now obviously, having the more talented top 2 is much more impactful then having a more talented 4-5, but Patrick Ewing being completely outmatched as far as help goes is revisionist history. Ewing couldn't beat Jordan mainly cause Jordan was better.
I'd like to point out that Jordan had a very rough series overall vs the Knicks in '93. If Pippen didn't step up and play some superb allround basketball, the Knicks win that series. Pippen was the MVP of that series, not Jordan.

It is no coincidence that Jordan struggled against that team though. As soon as the Knicks started bulking up after the 91 season, Jordan started having much less success against them. Up until that point, he had dominated them both in the regular season and playoffs. The 92 and 93 version of the Knicks were the only team that could physically stand up to Jordan IMO in all their championship runs. They had (somewhat) athletic guards, and a great, intimidating frontline. Still, the Bulls supporting casts were no slouches either. Pippen, Horace Grant (allstar in 94), BJ Armstrong (also allstar in 94) and Bill Cartwright were quality players, not to mention their specialist crew of Levingston, Scott and Paxson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
But you just touched on the difference....or at least the difference from my point of view.

I don't view Kobe as the clear cut best like MJ was when he was winning titles.

Which is why when you say "nobody cares"...it's a little misleading because certain players played at higher levels or perceived higher levels. Nobody cares about Lebron winning with a stacked team because he's clearly the best player in the game right now.

I think that is the difference Kobe fans fail to see...Kobe never separated himself from all the other players the way some of the guys he's compared to did...

Look, what I think some Kobe fans are upset about is the fact that Kobe seems to be held to a double standard. You say that Kobe wasn't perceived as the clear cut best when he was winning titles, but then that only puts him in the same category as for example Magic Johnson. Magic won 5 titles, but only two as the arguably the best player in the league. Bird, not Magic, was considered the best player in the league in the mid 80s, as proven by his three straight MVP's. Magic on the other hand, got his infamous nickname Tragic Johnson during this time. Then Magic arguably took the best in the league crown in 87 to 90, before Jordan overtook him. Yet I don't hear much complaining from people that Magic, for the larger part of his career, was not considered the best in the league. The competition was tough, but still.

Now if we analyze the competition further, we see that Jordan faced considerably weaker opposition than Kobe did during the latter part of his career. Jordan never faced any team like Boston 08, even Boston 10, during his second threepeat. Not only was the level of competition in the West far toughter than the competition MJ faced in the East from 96-98, but the whole league was just more talented. Where are the quality perimeter players from Jordan's era? I can only think of a handful, and the best ones were too young or did not have teams to even make a little noise in the Playoffs. This is exactly what you hold against Kobe during his 08-10 run, yet it's perfectly fine for Jordan from 96-98? The only time Jordan faced a quality defensive guard in the Playoffs in this period, he struggled (Payton, 96 Finals). Yet all these things are ok for certain all time greats, while Kobe are being killed for having a bad game 7, while arguably facing a better team than Jordan ever did from 96-98.

Last edited by havoc33 : 08-21-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:05 AM   #92
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc33
I'd like to point out that Jordan had a very rough series overall vs the Knicks in '93. If Pippen didn't step up and play some superb allround basketball, the Knicks win that series. Pippen was the MVP of that series, not Jordan.

Okay, thats one series against them. One series where he also had two of the best games of his career, including one of the greatest performances in playoff history, both which resulted in wins. Pippen was the MVP and Jordan did overall have a bad series. But good chance Pippen isn't having the same series without Jordan getting the Knicks attention, which was the case the next year where Pippen was much worse. This doesn't change what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc33
It is no coincidence that Jordan struggled against that team though. As soon as the Knicks started bulking up after the 91 season, Jordan started having much less success against them. Up until that point, he had dominated them both in the regular season and playoffs. The 92 and 93 version of the Knicks were the only team that could physically stand up to Jordan IMO in all their championship runs. They had (somewhat) athletic guards, and a great, intimidating frontline. Still, the Bulls supporting casts were no slouches either. Pippen, Horace Grant (allstar in 94), BJ Armstrong (also allstar in 94) and Bill Cartwright were quality players, not to mention their specialist crew of Levingston, Scott and Paxson.

Never said that Jordan's cast were slouches. But there's this myth that Ewing's cast was just cause he didn't have someone as good as Pippen, and that same myth is the case with numerous players from that era. While Jordan had the better best teammate, the rest of the Knicks were clearly better. The Bulls had the better #1-2 while the Knicks had the better #3-12.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:30 AM   #93
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

guy; it's amusing to read your posts.
You always make good points but you also always find loopholes to praise a guy like Jordan and belittle Kobe. I mean, you're agenda driven; you could play the devils advocate for Kobe pretty well too. It's embedded in your brain to reply to threads that praise Kobe, and find faults in his game. At the same time, do the complete opposite for other players (like Jordan for instance). It doesn't make you a troll but it's hard for me to respect your opinion because you're clearly biased.

That's why I'm going to start staying out of these redundant conversations. It's the same crop of posters dissing Kobe; consistently changing criteria & circumstances in order to dismiss him as a great player. It's not just you who does it, but to your credit; at least you don't troll and bring forward great points. I just wish you were more neutral, I don't think I've ever seen you reply to trolls who consistently diss Kobe and shut them up. But you're very persistent on doing that to people who praise Kobe a lot.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:38 AM   #94
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
guy; it's amusing to read your posts.
You always make good points but you also always find loopholes to praise a guy like Jordan and belittle Kobe. I mean, you're agenda driven; you could play the devils advocate for Kobe pretty well too. It's embedded in your brain to reply to threads that praise Kobe, and find faults in his game. At the same time, do the complete opposite for other players (like Jordan for instance). It doesn't make you a troll but it's hard for me to respect your opinion because you're clearly biased.

That's why I'm going to start staying out of these redundant conversations. It's the same crop of posters dissing Kobe; consistently changing criteria & circumstances in order to dismiss him as a great player. It's not just you who does it, but to your credit; at least you don't troll and bring forward great points. I just wish you were more neutral, I don't think I've ever seen you reply to trolls who consistently diss Kobe and shut them up. But you're very persistent on doing that to people who praise Kobe a lot.

The f*ck are you talking about? Yea I'm a Jordan fan, not a Kobe fan. Do you praise Jordan when people criticize him? Every post I've seen you make is about Kobe and/or trying to argue that he's closer to Jordan then he is. And even though I can admit I'm biased, I'm not inconsistent with Kobe. In this thread I haven't said Kobe's teams were so much better then everyone else's. In fact, I agreed it wasn't. The only criticism I had about this thread was your flawed logic by using total stats.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:54 AM   #95
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
The f*ck are you talking about? Yea I'm a Jordan fan, not a Kobe fan. Do you praise Jordan when people criticize him? Every post I've seen you make is about Kobe and/or trying to argue that he's closer to Jordan then he is. And even though I can admit I'm biased, I'm not inconsistent with Kobe. In this thread I haven't said Kobe's teams were so much better then everyone else's. In fact, I agreed it wasn't. The only criticism I had about this thread was your flawed logic by using total stats.

I called you biased, and you admitted to it.
I've said countless times that Jordan is the G.O.A.T.!
I don't know how else I can praise the man, that's the ultimate praise I can give him. No? I am aware that Jordan is better then Kobe, but posters like you (and to the extreme, the other trolls on this forum) make it seem like Kobe isn't a legend in his own right. Which is why I tend to talk about him so much. I've watched the man play for 17 years in this league for my favorite team, so it's hard to sit back and listen to all the bullshit you guys spew about him.

On a sidenote, this thread wasn't created because of you. I know you never said Kobe's teammates were so much superior to everyone else. Other posters did, therefore I replied to them. Yes, Kobe's teammates were good when he won 2 titles and led them to 3 straight final appearances; but so were Jordan's, in fact Jordan had better teammates.

Pippen/Grant/Kokuc/Harper/Rodman or Odom/Gasol/Ariza/World Peace/Fisher.
Not a hard decision, to be honest.

Fact is, you pick and choose your arguments. You'll take opportunity to praise Jordan and diss Kobe. I've never even seen you talk about Kobe in a high regard. You just always reply in threads that are either pro or con Kobe, and simply highlight negative aspects of his career.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:57 AM   #96
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Gasol, Odom, Ariza, Bynum, and Fisher

Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum and Fisher

Was absolutely in 2009 and 2010 relative to competition a nice well rounded roster that fit their superstar, almost perfectly.

Are they considered stacked like the 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Celtics? I don't think so.

Are they near as top heavy talented as the 2011 Heat? No.

Are they as talented and stacked as the 2012 and 2013 Heat? No.

But relative to the league in those seasons, they weren't some averaging supporting cast either.

I agree with this, but let's not mention Bynum's name like he actually had an impact in 2009 where he was hurt for the most part, and averaged very pedestrian numbers in 2010. It was not the prime Bynum that he later became and stayed that way for almost one season(!) before getting hurt again.

Kobe had the supporting cast to win, but only because it was Kobe. I can name several other superstars that would definitely wet the bed if they had been in his shoes. LA surrounded him with just enough talent, and he did what a true superstar does and led them to back-to-back chips. He had no other superstar, no one else that could slash or create his own shot, or an elite shooter. He was the 90% of their perimeter offense and was still an elite defender during that time.

And some of you need to stop comparing Lebron's cast from his Cleveland years to the Lakers, because Lebron didn't even get close to winning a chip, so why bother comparing? His team had the best record and one of the best defenses in the league two years in a row, and they were heavily favored to at least win the East, but they didn't, so why pretend as if they'd gotten even close to reaching their goal and compare them to the actual champions? You might as well discuss Josh Smith's supporting cast too while you're at it.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:06 AM   #97
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
I called you biased, and you admitted to it.
I've said countless times that Jordan is the G.O.A.T.!
I don't know how else I can praise the man, that's the ultimate praise I can give him. No? I am aware that Jordan is better then Kobe, but posters like you (and to the extreme, the other trolls on this forum) make it seem like Kobe isn't a legend in his own right. Which is why I tend to talk about him so much. I've watched the man play for 17 years in this league for my favorite team, so it's hard to sit back and listen to all the bullshit you guys spew about him.

On a sidenote, this thread wasn't created because of you. I know you never said Kobe's teammates were so much superior to everyone else. Other posters did, therefore I replied to them. Yes, Kobe's teammates were good when he won 2 titles and led them to 3 straight final appearances; but so were Jordan's, in fact Jordan had better teammates.

Pippen/Grant/Kokuc/Harper/Rodman or Odom/Gasol/Ariza/World Peace/Fisher.
Not a hard decision, to be honest.

Fact is, you pick and choose your arguments. You'll take opportunity to praise Jordan and diss Kobe. I've never even seen you talk about Kobe in a high regard. You just always reply in threads that are either pro or con Kobe, and simply highlight negative aspects of his career.

I admitted to it cause I'm not in denial about it. Are you telling me you're unbiased? There's not a poster here that doesn't have some sort of bias.

Where the hell have I said Kobe isn't a legend? I've had in my top 10 of all-time for years.

I pick and choose my arguments? Sure, what am I supposed to do? Respond to every thread in ISH? I'm obviously going to respond to threads that I have more of an interest in then others. And I at least actually respond to threads that have nothing to do with Jordan or Kobe. Do you? Cause I haven't noticed.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:08 AM   #98
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
I admitted to it cause I'm not in denial about it. Are you telling me you're unbiased? There's not a poster here that doesn't have some sort of bias.

Where the hell have I said Kobe isn't a legend? I've had in my top 10 of all-time for years.

I pick and choose my arguments? Sure, what am I supposed to do? Respond to every thread in ISH? I'm obviously going to respond to threads that I have more of an interest in then others. And I at least actually respond to threads that have nothing to do with Jordan or Kobe. Do you? Cause I haven't noticed.

Sure I do, I post more in Off The Court & Video Game forum then I do here. And I do reply to a lot of non-Kobe threads but unfortunately 90% of threads created in the NBA forum is about Kobe. So it's kind of hard not to post in them.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:14 AM   #99
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
Sure I do, I post more in Off The Court & Video Game forum then I do here. And I do reply to a lot of non-Kobe threads but unfortunately 90% of threads created in the NBA forum is about Kobe. So it's kind of hard not to post in them.

Oh like this thread and the numerous other Kobe threads you create on a regular basis?

By the way, I'm probably going to respond to the Kobe, Dirk, Durant vs Wade, Lebron, Bosh in the next hour or so. Just letting you know so you can follow my posts easier
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:18 AM   #100
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

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Originally Posted by guy
Oh like this thread and the numerous other Kobe threads you create on a regular basis?

By the way, I'm probably going to respond to the Kobe, Dirk, Durant vs Wade, Lebron, Bosh in the next hour or so. Just letting you know so you can follow my posts easier

Uhm, I created this thread and a couple of others to reply to posters who asked me the questions in other threads. I actually made an effort to talk basketball. Are my threads really biased and pro-Kobe, or are they highlighting facts about his career?

Search my ID and see how many threads I've created about Kobe since 2011. I'd be shocked if it's more then 5.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:28 AM   #101
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

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rhythmic †hesis

Here are all the threads I created since joining this forum.
A total of four threads talking about Kobe, in the last 2 years.
3 of them (the past 2 weeks) was directly related to debates I had with other posters about Kobe.

So how do I create threads about Kobe on a regular basis again, champ?
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:44 AM   #102
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

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Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
Here are all the threads I created since joining this forum.
A total of four threads talking about Kobe, in the last 2 years.
3 of them (the past 2 weeks) was directly related to debates I had with other posters about Kobe.

So how do I create threads about Kobe on a regular basis again, champ?

The majority of those threads have something to do with the Lakers and you're trying to make it seem like Kobe wasn't part of the subject matter there? GTFOH.

Dude I could care less what you respond to and what you don't. Just no need to talk shit about who's bias and who's not and act like you're on some higher level thats completely unbiased. You say you just want to talk basketball, then talk basketball, even if the majority of it is about Kobe. He's one of best players ever, one of the greatest current athletes, and one of the more entertaining characters in the world to discuss. Its understandable, so do you. And if you don't think my posts are worth the time of day, then don't respond. But get that other shit out of here.
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