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Old 08-20-2013, 01:13 PM   #31
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA_Showtime
Gasol was a beast but inconsistent. Odom wasn't nearly as good as people make him out to be. Bynum...

Which year are you talking about for Bynum? He made a solid impact in 10 and was honestly only marginally worse than a guy like Tyson Chandler in the 11 playoffs.

So if you laugh at Chandler's impact...I totally agree. But if you are trying to claim that Bynum was worthless or something in 10...I don't see the evidence for that.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:15 PM   #32
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Only 09 Howard was even remotely close.

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Old 08-20-2013, 01:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
What a load of crap, tell me buddy.
In 2006, who was Wade's competition? Dirk? I'm pretty sure he didn't have a 2nd option quite like Shaq.

LeBron? Who the hell did he beat? Durant? An inexperienced Thunder squad who choked away every game thanks to Harden? Oh the aging Spurs with Tim Duncan almost turning 40?

It's so funny to me just how many excuses you guys come up with when it comes to Kobe. Fact is, both LeBron & Wade (in 2006, 2011, 2012, 2013) won in probably a far easier league then Kobe did in 2009 & 2010.

There was parity in the league, and the west was very top heavy. Every team was good, I don't give a **** if your excuses is that LeBron/Garnett/Wade didn't have great teammates around them; GREAT teams won before, like the Pistons of 04' or Dallas of 11'.

Yet because it's Kobe, lets come up with more excuses to discredit the man.
Give it a rest people.


This is the problem. You get owned in one post...and start attacking me and brining up every other year. 06 has no impact on what happened in 09 or 10.

For example. The competition overall in 13 was incredibly weak. I've been saying it a lot. Worse than 09 for sure with Parker getting hurt in the finals.

Am I now anti Lebron for saying that?

Talk about the years you mention...It's not belittling Kobe. It's stating facts. The other true stars didn't have great teams or Kobe avoided playing them.

This stuff is only brought up when people use titles too much when talking about players....or Kobe's coaching and supporting cast is under-rated.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:19 PM   #34
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
This is the problem. You get owned in one post...and start attacking me and brining up every other year. 06 has no impact on what happened in 09 or 10.

For example. The competition overall in 13 was incredibly weak. I've been saying it a lot. Worse than 09 for sure with Parker getting hurt in the finals.

Am I now anti Lebron for saying that?

Talk about the years you mention...It's not belittling Kobe. It's stating facts. The other true stars didn't have great teams or Kobe avoided playing them.

This stuff is only brought up when people use titles too much when talking about players....or Kobe's coaching and supporting cast is under-rated.

I think from 2008-2010, Kobe beat more 50+ win teams then any player in playoff history. Yet because those teams didn't have a superstar, they weren't contenders according to you.

When did I get owned jackass? I've completely owned you in this thread.
Did you not say just yesterday Kobe has the deepest team in the league?

Now you're backtracking? LOL

You shit for brains.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #35
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
I think from 2008-2010, Kobe beat more 50+ win teams then any player in playoff history. Yet because those teams didn't have a superstar, they weren't contenders according to you.

When did I get owned jackass? I've completely owned you in this post.
Did you not say just yesterday Kobe has the deepest team in the league?

You shit for brains.

Lets pause for a second and stop making shit up.

08 was never part of the conversation. So you can throw all of that out. The Lakers did not win in 08...and I hardly doubt you want to bring up the 08 collapse in the finals as the favorite.

So it's 09 and 10.

Sorry...I don't find the competition to be stiff. I think the Lakers had a very large margin of error. And the reasons are as follows;

- The greatness of Kobe
- Phil Jackson
- Pau Gasol
- Solid supporting cast with a proclivity to making huge shots
- Lack of playing other teams with true superstars like Wade, Lebron, Dirk, and KG (09)
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #36
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

One thing though...While Dmavs and KG215 would take any opportunity to knock or discredit Kobe, they atleast do it not in a dumbass trolling way. I don't see those 2 saying dumb shit like "Stacked frontline" or "Frontline carried Kobe" or "Gasol real 2010 finals MVP" like others do...Do I expect them to give Kobe credit for stuff? No, just like I wouldn't go out of my way to credit LeBron...

It is wat it is though, If Kobe plays for the Nuggets, threads would be : "Is Kenyon Martin most underrated super star ever", "Marcus Camby carried Kobe" .."JR Smith true Finals MVP".....And Gasol wouldn't even be getting discussed.

You know how many times I've see "stacked FRONTLINE" posted? Yet facts show that 3 out of 4 of the frontline players Kobe played with has horrible to ok role player numbers? It's just trolling....

This is a haters world ppl, we have to accept it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by branslowski
One thing though...While Dmavs and KG215 would take any opportunity to knock or discredit Kobe, they atleast do it not in a dumbass trolling way. I don't see those 2 saying dumb shit like "Stacked frontline" or "Frontline carried Kobe" or "Gasol real 2010 finals MVP" like others do...Do I expect them to give Kobe credit for stuff? No, just like I wouldn't go out of my way to credit LeBron...

It is wat it is though, If Kobe plays for the Nuggets, threads would be : "Is Kenyon Martin most underrated super star ever", "Marcus Camby carried Kobe" .."JR Smith true Finals MVP".....And Gasol wouldn't even be getting discussed.

You know how many times I've see "stacked FRONTLINE" posted? Yet facts show that 3 out of 4 of the frontline players Kobe played with has horrible to ok role player numbers? It's just trolling....

This is a haters world ppl, we have to accept it.

I would depend on the circumstances, but I do agree that Kobe on the Nuggets definitely win the Western Conference. I'd be a little more nervous about the finals though. That series against the Magic could have gone a number of different ways...and I really think Gasol was very important against Howard in that series.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:26 PM   #38
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

DMAVs agreed on your overall premise..

But.. I want you to apply that same logic to Michael Jordan.


Did Michael have a better supporting cast than his adversaries?

Who was ewing's second option in the early 90s? John Starks? Ewing had the equivalent of what 2011 Derrick Rose had.. a bunch of defensive role players and one offensive talent except Patrick was the one who made their defense and rebounding elite, on TOP of being the guy they leaned on offensively.

Ewings second option was basically JR Smith.


Charles Barkley? He had the pieces for 1 or 2 years and gave jordan one of his most competitive Finals series. Still never had a second option on Scotties level, nor the coaching, nor the overall teams over a signifigant time span

Hakeem? Not much even has to be said..

Shaq? Had some good talent, but again didnt have near the depth, as good a number two, or coaching to glue it all together.

David Robinson? Again nothing has to be said.




If you switch MJ out to the knicks and make him have to work with John Starks while Ewing gets pippen.. I dont see how the bulls with ewing lose there. Ewing had much less to work with but still led his team to wins and competitive series. You swap pieces and the odds are greatly in his favor.

And overall MJ had the best teams, second option, and coach of ANY other superstar in the 90s... yet no one seems to ever bring it up.

Last edited by tpols : 08-20-2013 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:30 PM   #39
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
DMAVs agreed on your overall premise..

But.. I want you to apply that same logic to Michael Jordan.


Did Michael have a better supporting cast than his adversaries?

Who was ewing's second option in the early 90s? John Starks? Ewing had the equivalent of what 2011 Derrick Rose had.. a bunch of defensive role players and one offensive talent except Patrick was the one who made their defense and rebounding elite, on TOP of being the guy they leaned on offensively.

Ewings second option was basically JR Smith.


Charles Barkley? He had the pieces for 1 or 2 years and gave jordan one of his most competitive Finals series. Still never had a second option on Scotties level, nor the coaching, nor the overall teams over a signifigant time span

Hakeem? Not much even has to be said..

Shaq? Had some good talent, but again didnt have near the depth, as good a number two, or coaching to glue it all together.

David Robinson? Again nothing has to be said.




If you switch MJ out to the knicks and make him have to work with John Starks while Ewing gets pippen.. I dont see how the knicks lose there. Ewing had much less to work with but still led his team to wins and competitive series. You swap pieces and the odds are greatly in his favor.


These are literally the points I've been trying to make since joining this site. Totally agree that in a lot of cases it's the team/coaching that is the most important.

But we have to distinguish between a guy like Kobe and Melo for example. That wouldn't work if you switched them...the Kobe led team would just almost always win unless the gap was just huge. But switch Kobe and Wade or Lebron...I think the guy with the better supporting cast and coaching wins most of the time.

Which is why I always defended Dirk for not winning. I never thought he had a team on par with the 10 Lakers or 11 Heat or 08 Celtics...etc. I still don't think he's ever had that.

So we agree. Glad it only took 4 years.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
These are literally the points I've been trying to make since joining this site. Totally agree that in a lot of cases it's the team/coaching that is the most important.

But we have to distinguish between a guy like Kobe and Melo for example. That wouldn't work if you switched them...the Kobe led team would just almost always win unless the gap was just huge. But switch Kobe and Wade or Lebron...I think the guy with the better supporting cast and coaching wins most of the time.

Which is why I always defended Dirk for not winning. I never thought he had a team on par with the 10 Lakers or 11 Heat or 08 Celtics...etc. I still don't think he's ever had that.

So we agree. Glad it only took 4 years.
Kind of goes back to Kblazes thread about how players really arent that much better than each other when it comes to the greats.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:37 PM   #41
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
Cleveland Cavaliers: 66-16
M. Williams, Ilgauskas, D. West & Varejao
51 PPG, 21.3 RPG, 9.6 APG, 48 FG%, 79 FT%, 31 MPG, 3.7 SPG, 2.4 BPG, 6 TO/G & 63.9 PER

Orlando Magic: 59-23
Lewis, Turkoglu, Nelson & Alston
63.2 PPG, 17.4 RPG, 18 APG, 44 FG%, 81 FT%, 33 MPG, 4.8 SPG, 1 BPG, 8.4 TO/G, 67.8 PER

Denver Nuggets: 54-28
Iverson, Billups, JR Smith & Nene
66.4 PPG, 17.2 RPG, 17.3 APG, 48 FG%, 78 FT%, 34 MPG, 4.4 SPG, 2 BPG, 9.3 TO/G, 69.6 PER

Portland Trail Blazers: 54-28
Aldridge, Outlaw, Blake & Fernandez
52.3 PPG, 16.8 RPG, 9.9 APG, 45 FG%, 80 FT%, 31 MPG, 3.5 SPG, 2 BPG, 5.4 TO/G & 64.1 PER

Utah Jazz: 48-34
Okur, Boozer, Brewer & Milsap
60.4 PPG, 30.4 RPG, 7.8 APG, 50 FG%, 73 FT%, 32 MPG, 4.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG, 7 TO/G & 69.4 PER

SA Spurs: 54-28
Parker, Ginobili, Mason & Gooden
59.1 PPG, 15.1 RPG, 12.8 APG, 47 FG%, 84 FT%, 27 MPG, 3.1 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 6.6 TO/G & 77 PER

Dallas Mavericks: 50-32
Terry, Howard, Kidd & Bass
55.1 PPG, 18.2 RPG, 14.2 APG, 46 FG%, 84 FT%, 30 MPG, 4.7 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 6.7 TO/G, 69.6 PER

LA Lakers: 65-17
Gasol, Bynum, Odom & Fisher
54.4 PPG, 28.1 RPG, 10.7 APG, 51 FG%, 74 FT%, 31 MPG, 3.2 SPG, 4.2 BPG, 6.3 TO/G, 70.9 PER

I didn't include Boston Celtics since they were injured in the playoffs.
So that's 8 contenders, lets see how the best 4 players Kobe had during his championship year & 65 win season compares to some of the other stars.

So Kobe's best four players led the group in FG% & BPG, they are also the only group that has 2 centers in the mix, so it is to be somewhat expected.

Points: 6th
Rebounds: 2nd
Assists: 5th
FG%: 1st
FT%: 7th
MPG: Tied for 4th highest
Steals: 7th
Blocks: 1st
TO/G: 3rd lowest
PER: 2nd

That year Tony Parker made 3rd team All-NBA (as well as the All-Star game), as well as Chauncey Billups. McGrady was pretty banged up; Delonte West is clearly not on Pau's level.

So it's safe to call Pau Gasol the 2nd best option, especially come playoff time. I have no problem with that.

But tell me this, why do some of you persist on calling LA by far the deepest team in the league? Bynum was a non-factor in 2008/09 playoffs either, so if I replaced Ariza with Bynum those numbers would go down and LA wouldn't be #1 in blocks or FG%.

Yet somehow other superstars don't have enough talent around them, only Kobe had all the help in the world.

By the way, 2009/10 numbers are even less in favour of the so called "Kobe has the deepest team" myth.

I'll assemble those numbers later, too lazy right now.
Cheers!

PS - I promise DMAV and a few other posters that I was having an argument with yesterday that I will post these numbers.
I thought "deep" means the whole team, not just the starting five. To say a team is deep, means their bench are also of quality.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:37 PM   #42
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
So we agree. Glad it only took 4 years.

I guess it's a case of better late than never.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:37 PM   #43
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I would depend on the circumstances, but I do agree that Kobe on the Nuggets definitely win the Western Conference. I'd be a little more nervous about the finals though. That series against the Magic could have gone a number of different ways...and I really think Gasol was very important against Howard in that series.

Meh, it was more of the fact that Dwight wasn't a offensive powerhouse, and Bynum helped Also....Martin and Camby would of been even better defensively vs Dwight...Gasol was never known as a great defender...And Kobe took the Magics will away.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:41 PM   #44
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
I thought "deep" means the whole team, not just the starting five. To say a team is deep, means their bench are also of quality.

Sasha, Ariza, Farmar, Powell, Walton, Radmanovic, Mbenga, A.Morrison were the remaining players on the roster.

Do I really need to list their numbers in comparison to other teams?
Those players were marginal impact players for LA besides Ariza, and most of those contenders I listed had a 6th man at the very least as good as Ariza.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:41 PM   #45
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Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Kind of goes back to Kblazes thread about how players really arent that much better than each other when it comes to the greats.

I agree to some extent. But if you start talking about Kobe and Melo on the same tier...you lose me.

Same with Barkley and MJ. Bird and Nique...etc.

I agree, but not to the extent Kblaze does.
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