Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-20-2013, 12:38 PM   #16
Legends66NBA7
Face Of Death
 
Legends66NBA7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 18,621
Legends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableLegends66NBA7 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by PickernRoller
Gino isn't banned?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=89043
Legends66NBA7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 12:42 PM   #17
PickernRoller
2/5
 
PickernRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,578
PickernRoller has not been impressing people
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Tony Montana type of troll back in the day. He was temp banned then. No matter.
PickernRoller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 12:47 PM   #18
Heavincent
5-time NBA All-Star
 
Heavincent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,818
Heavincent has a terrific reputationHeavincent has a terrific reputationHeavincent has a terrific reputationHeavincent has a terrific reputationHeavincent has a terrific reputation
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
If you look at these numbers.. basically ANY team Kobe could easily win with, would be said to have carried him with their big men.



Okur Boozer Millsap? New big three! Best big men trio in the league while Pau/Odom recieve little attention getting bounced in the first round at best as they are led by Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar, and Ron Artest on the perimeter and Bynum on the bench playing nintendo. Denver nuggets? Nene! Camby! DPOY center and offensive juggernaut to save the day.... it can go on and on.

So true. The Lakers did run into some really talented and well rounded teams. The difference was they were being led by inferior perimeter stars such as Melo, Deron, etc.

Obviously the front court was important, but the two biggest reasons for the Lakers success were Kobe and Phil Jackson.
Heavincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 12:47 PM   #19
fpliii
peace out
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: nbastats.net
Posts: 9,829
fpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Two questions OP:

1) I don't think I've heard the "deepest team" claim very often, just "best/deepest frontcourt".

2) Why did you decide on exactly 4 guys (instead of 3, or 5)? I would think that these would be their crunch-time lineups, but I don't think many teams played three bigs at a time that season. I think Fisher and a couple of other guys bring down their teams' numbers in this comparison.

Either way, both years were great runs by Kobe (and the Lakers). They went through 4 straight top 10 defenses in 09! Damn.
fpliii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 12:49 PM   #20
SilkkTheShocker
RAY ALLEN FOR 3..BANG!
 
SilkkTheShocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,753
SilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this boardSilkkTheShocker has one of the lowest reputations on this board
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

LeBron is a better player than Kobe ever was.
SilkkTheShocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 12:50 PM   #21
Segatti
Good High School Starter
 
Segatti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 933
Segatti has no real reputation yet.
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Lakers wasn't going to pass the first round without Kobe, period.
Segatti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 12:51 PM   #22
rhythmic †hesis
Welcome to LA S. Nash!
 
rhythmic †hesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: manhattan, ny
Posts: 2,420
rhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
Two questions OP:

1) I don't think I've heard the "deepest team" claim very often, just "best/deepest frontcourt".

2) Why did you decide on exactly 4 guys (instead of 3, or 5)? I would think that these would be their crunch-time lineups, but I don't think many teams played three bigs at a time that season. I think Fisher and a couple of other guys bring down their teams' numbers in this comparison.

1) Just yesterday a bunch of posters were saying Kobe had the deepest team in the league; saying how other stars (or contending teams) didn't have anywhere near the talent Kobe had.

2) I just picked the top 4 players. I was fair throughout, I didn't include Kirilenko for Utah for example. I picked top 4 because excluding their star player, it basically makes up the starting five. Plus the "leftovers" were primarily role players.

And if you or anyone else are thinking I'm skewing the numbers, go take a look at who Kobe had after the 4 I named. You'll understand, that I'm actually favoring LA by just picking Gasol, Bynum, Odom & Fisher. Their efficiency, rebounding and blocks are highlighted this way.

I used a spreadsheet to do this analysis, and it would have also taken me longer if I was to say pick 6-7 players. I don't see how the analysis would have a different result anyways.
rhythmic †hesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 12:57 PM   #23
fpliii
peace out
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: nbastats.net
Posts: 9,829
fpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
1) Just yesterday a bunch of posters were saying Kobe had the deepest team in the league; saying how other stars (or contending teams) didn't have anywhere near the talent Kobe had.

2) I just picked the top 4 players. I was fair throughout, I didn't include Kirilenko for Utah for example. I picked top 4 because excluding their star player, it basically makes up the starting five. Plus the "leftovers" were primarily role players.

And if you or anyone else are thinking I'm skewing the numbers, go take a look at who Kobe had after the 4 I named. You'll understand, that I'm actually favoring LA by just picking Gasol, Bynum, Odom & Fisher. Their efficiency, rebounding and blocks are highlighted this way.

I used a spreadsheet to do this analysis, and it would have also taken me longer if I was to say pick 6-7 players. I don't see how the analysis would have a different result anyways.

1) I think Boston was definitely deeper. Denver was pretty close too.

2) There are 5 guys on the court, but how often were those guys on the court together for each team (probably not very long)? Fisher causes the problem here since he's the 4th guy, and the worst of the bunch. Using any fewer players (excluding him) removes his impact on the stats, any more decreases his impact.
fpliii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 01:02 PM   #24
rhythmic †hesis
Welcome to LA S. Nash!
 
rhythmic †hesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: manhattan, ny
Posts: 2,420
rhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
1) I think Boston was definitely deeper. Denver was pretty close too.

2) There are 5 guys on the court, but how often were those guys on the court together for each team (probably not very long)? Fisher causes the problem here since he's the 4th guy, and the worst of the bunch. Using any fewer players (excluding him) removes his impact on the stats, any more decreases his impact.

I decided to use 5 players (excluding their star player) to highlight that Kobe's top-heavy supporting cast isn't that much better then quite a few other teams that year. The discrepency between Kobe's supporting cast and say D.William's or Anthony's supporting cast would be heavily skewed in favour of Denver/Utah (if I was to include say 6 players instead of 4) because believe it or not Kobe's main help was Gasol, Fisher & Odom. Bynum was a non-factor in the playoffs.

Still point is; does LA look that significantly better then the rest of the league minus Kobe (and the other team's star)?
rhythmic †hesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 01:05 PM   #25
guy
NBA All-star
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,287
guy has an incredible reputation hereguy has an incredible reputation hereguy has an incredible reputation hereguy has an incredible reputation hereguy has an incredible reputation hereguy has an incredible reputation hereguy has an incredible reputation hereguy has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Flawed thread. First of all, who was comparing Kobe to guys like Deron, Melo, Roy, past his prime Duncan at the time? Second of all, total stats are a function of style of play, strategy, etc. Lakers are obviously going to cater to Kobe more then the Jazz would do to Deron Williams for example. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, but that doesn't mean the Jazz 2-5 are better then the Lakers 2-5 just cause stats say so. And by the way, other then the obvious AI error, there's errors like that all over the place. Jameer Nelson, Carlos Boozer, Manu Ginobili missed like half the season for their teams. Thats obviously going to inflate the stats of their teammates, but isn't actually an accurate depiction of what all 4 of them do on the court together. By the way, I realize the same can be said for Bynum and the Lakers. But either way, this way of looking at it is clearly flawed.
guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 01:06 PM   #26
DMAVS41
NBA Legend
 
DMAVS41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,605
DMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Who has ever claimed the deepest team? I don't think I did, but if I did...that is just wrong.

I don't see anything in those numbers that proves anything. Other than there were some good teams out there.

I agree with what tpols said when he said that switch out Kobe and Carmelo and the Nuggets win. Totally agree...I have never intimated that Melo and Kobe were at all similar. In fact...I've been a huge anti Melo guy here for a long time.

Now, the real test...and my point from the beginning....would be if Wade was on the Nuggets. First off...I'm not sure the Lakers win, but lets say they do...if you then played the same hypothetical and switched them out...I think the Wade led Lakers win. For example.

Heavincent just made my point for me. The difference was in the lower tiered stars they faced.

You guys need to distinguish between what people actually say. I never said Gasol was the MVP of the Lakers. Certainly at times he was, but Kobe was clearly the best and most valuable player on those teams. And Phil Jackson is part of Kobe's help. You can't remove the coach.

Basically this thread proves exactly what I've been saying. That the other true stars didn't have the teams to challenge the Lakers. Lebron, Wade, Dirk, and KG were all missing in 09 for example.

You win with stars. And I don't see any number 2 guy on any of those teams playing at the level 09 and 10 Gasol did. Coaching is hugely important...and other than Pop...who had a coach that equals Phil? Nobody. And again...Kobe is simply better than all the other guys he faced as a star. Only 09 Howard was even remotely close. And again...that is part the greatness of Kobe...and part the true elite players not having great teams.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 08-20-2013 at 01:09 PM.
DMAVS41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 01:11 PM   #27
fpliii
peace out
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: nbastats.net
Posts: 9,829
fpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterfpliii is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmic †hesis
I decided to use 5 players (excluding their star player) to highlight that Kobe's top-heavy supporting cast isn't that much better then quite a few other teams that year. The discrepency between Kobe's supporting cast and say D.William's or Anthony's supporting cast would be heavily skewed in favour of Denver/Utah (if I was to include say 6 players instead of 4) because believe it or not Kobe's main help was Gasol, Fisher & Odom. Bynum was a non-factor in the playoffs.

Still point is; does LA look that significantly better then the rest of the league minus Kobe (and the other team's star)?

I think those teams were deeper (well definitely Denver, undecided about Utah), but Melo/DWill aren't and have never been in Kobe's class. I agree about Bynum that playoffs, but then you can't use Iverson and Billups since one was traded for the other, and you have to use playoff stats for every team.

I don't think LA was levels above everyone else sans Kobe. There probably were only a couple of guys in the league those seasons you could replace Kobe with and have the same results, and there's no guarantee they would anyway.
fpliii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 01:11 PM   #28
LA_Showtime
Call me the Mamba
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 14,793
LA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterLA_Showtime is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Gasol was a beast but inconsistent. Odom wasn't nearly as good as people make him out to be. Bynum...
LA_Showtime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 01:11 PM   #29
DMAVS41
NBA Legend
 
DMAVS41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,605
DMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterDMAVS41 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

There are two teams on there that I think anyone would be hard pressed to even consider taking over the Lakers.

Does anyone here think that Kobe wins with the 09 Cavs or 09 Mavs for example?

Please answer so I can see where you guys are coming from...
DMAVS41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 01:13 PM   #30
rhythmic †hesis
Welcome to LA S. Nash!
 
rhythmic †hesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: manhattan, ny
Posts: 2,420
rhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation hererhythmic †hesis has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Who has ever claimed the deepest team? I don't think I did, but if I did...that is just wrong.

I don't see anything in those numbers that proves anything. Other than there were some good teams out there.

I agree with what tpols said when he said that switch out Kobe and Carmelo and the Nuggets win. Totally agree...I have never intimated that Melo and Kobe were at all similar. In fact...I've been a huge anti Melo guy here for a long time.

Now, the real test...and my point from the beginning....would be if Wade was on the Nuggets. First off...I'm not sure the Lakers win, but lets say they do...if you then played the same hypothetical and switched them out...I think the Wade led Lakers win. For example.

Heavincent just made my point for me. The difference was in the lower tiered stars they faced.

You guys need to distinguish between what people actually say. I never said Gasol was the MVP of the Lakers. Certainly at times he was, but Kobe was clearly the best and most valuable player on those teams. And Phil Jackson is part of Kobe's help. You can't remove the coach.

Basically this thread proves exactly what I've been saying. That the other true stars didn't have the teams to challenge the Lakers. Lebron, Wade, Dirk, and KG were all missing in 09 for example.
You win with stars. And I don't see any number 2 guy on any of those teams playing at the level 09 and 10 Gasol did. Coaching is hugely important...and other than Pop...who had a coach that equals Phil? Nobody. And again...Kobe is simply better than all the other guys he faced as a star. Only 09 Howard was even remotely close. And again...that is part the greatness of Kobe...and part the true elite players not having great teams.


What a load of crap, tell me buddy.
In 2006, who was Wade's competition? Dirk? I'm pretty sure he didn't have a 2nd option quite like Shaq.

LeBron? Who the hell did he beat? Durant? An inexperienced Thunder squad who choked away every game thanks to Harden? Oh the aging Spurs with Tim Duncan almost turning 40?

It's so funny to me just how many excuses you guys come up with when it comes to Kobe. Fact is, both LeBron & Wade (in 2006, 2011, 2012, 2013) won in probably a far easier league then Kobe did in 2009 & 2010.

There was parity in the league, and the west was very top heavy. Every team was good, I don't give a **** if your excuses is that LeBron/Garnett/Wade didn't have great teammates around them; GREAT teams won before, like the Pistons of 04' or Dallas of 11'.

Yet because it's Kobe, lets come up with more excuses to discredit the man.
Give it a rest people.
rhythmic †hesis is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:11 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy