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Old 07-21-2013, 04:01 PM   #31
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

let it go. he won already and it wasn't that bad of a decision.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Rose earned it
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:06 PM   #33
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Seriously. Keep posting so you can school these clowns. Noah for MVP? LMAO ... missed 34 games, that's essentially half the season.

RG and his now never ending troll agenda against guards or little men who bring MAJOR impact to teams.

Rose's two next best players, Noah missed 34 games ... half the season and newly acquired Boozer missed 20 some odd games, a quarter of the season and severely underperformed even when on the floor.

Rose averaged BETTER numbers than LeBron against the top ten teams in the league that season, too. Clearly RG is bitter.

This RG dude is absolutely awful. His anti-Bulls agenda is disgraceful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyMontana
I was speaking about these Bulls teams in general.

I would much rather play a Bulls team without Noah than a Bulls team without Rose.

This year Nate Robinson was doing pretty much the same role Rose was doing to a certain extent. Not as good, but doing what was needed in terms of creating.

Chicago still took Miami just as far as they did with a healthy Rose(and the rest of their team being healthy as well.) as they did to a Nate Robinson and injury plauged Bulls team(5 games again).

Roses actual impact is incredibly overrated.

Look, troll, if you actually watched any of the Bulls games or know anything about them, you'd know that that is bullshit.

In the 11-12 season, the Bulls went 50-16.

With Rose, they went 32-7 (82% and on course for 67-15 in a full 82 season).

Without Rose, they went 18-9 (67% and on course for 55-27 in a full 82 season). Incidentally, they went 45-37 in the 12-13 without Rose playing a single game, although they were injury stricken for a lot of that year (Noah, Deng etc missed games) which explains the decrease from expected record (somewhere around 55-27) to their actual record.

Last 3 seasons (i.e. start of Rose's MVP year):

Record with Rose: 94-26 (78%)

Record without Rose: 63-47 (57%)

In the playoffs:

2011: With an injured Rose on grade 2 sprained ankle: ECF (all games were close except the first game at Chicago where they blew out Miami).

2012: With Rose for first game: first round only (blew out Philly first game, lose 4 out of the next 5)

2013: Without Rose: ECSF (sneak past Brooklyn, beaten by Miami in 5 games)
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
Rose: 25/3/7/1/1 on 44/30/88
Lebron: 28/8/6/1/1 on 56/30/75

Did the Bulls >>> the Heat in the regular season? Absolutely. But, at no point in their careers did Rose even come close to owning Lebron or even being better than him.

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

no ones gives a shit if u can score 28 points against the bucks.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:15 PM   #35
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Suck on these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t_bSn2bh9Q
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:16 PM   #36
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Xerxes
This RG dude is absolutely awful. His anti-Bulls agenda is disgraceful.



Look, troll, if you actually watched any of the Bulls games or know anything about them, you'd know that that is bullshit.

In the 11-12 season, the Bulls went 50-16.

With Rose, they went 32-7 (82% and on course for 67-15 in a full 82 season).

Without Rose, they went 18-9 (67% and on course for 55-27 in a full 82 season). Incidentally, they went 45-37 in the 12-13 without Rose playing a single game, although they were injury stricken for a lot of that year (Noah, Deng etc missed games) which explains the decrease from expected record (somewhere around 55-27) to their actual record.

Last 3 seasons (i.e. start of Rose's MVP year):

Record with Rose: 94-26 (78%)

Record without Rose: 63-47 (57%)

In the playoffs:

2011: With an injured Rose on grade 2 sprained ankle: ECF (all games were close except the first game at Chicago where they blew out Miami).

2012: With Rose for first game: first round only (blew out Philly first game, lose 4 out of the next 5)

2013: Without Rose: ECSF (sneak past Brooklyn, beaten by Miami in 5 games)

I'm not RG and I assure you there is no "anti Bulls" agenda. I am saying that Noah is a more valuable player to that team than Rose. If you were an actual Bulls fan that wouldn't be so offensive and we could argue it, but you are clearly just a Rose/Jordan stan.

Rose is a good regular season player. He will be able to pad his stats and secure additional wins for the team against the irrelevant ball clubs.

But in the playoffs when your playing real defenses, Noah is the teams most important player, especially if you want to beat Miami. Without him there is no chance of that happening.

Look at how Rose's FG% shrank when he had to play the Heat in 2011. His penetration game wasn't working when he had to go around guys like LeBron, Wade, and Chalmers. A 6'2 guard can only effect the game so much, and against bigger and competitive athletes you are not going to get clean looks like you do in the regular season vs the Sacramento Kings.

If you want to beat Miami it has to happen in the paint because the team is weak there. Noah clowns Bosh every time these teams play eachother and that has to be exploited. Your not beating Miami on the perimeter, guys like Butler and Deng are good to slow LeBron down , but that's all your going to do with that matchup.

Your subpar perimeter players just cannot match up with the greatness that is known as LeBron James. You better make sure your bigs dominate their matchup to counteract the damage or your going to be going home early.

Noah prevents easy baskets an GETS easy baskets. Elite rim defender and rebounder. Smart offensive player that helps the teams in ways other than ball domination.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

It was definitely the best thing for Lebron that Rose won that year. His last two historic years would have not been sweeps of MVP's that's for sure if Lebron had won that year.

Rose's MVP stands out more when you realize how Lebron, Wade, Kobe and Dwight all had trouble with new teams that were ultra talented. Rose was the one that really mastered that new team situation and he had big injuries, way more responsibility, new coach, best record, dominated the elite after Dec. 8th and his second and third best players underperformed and missed a lot of games.

Lebron and Wade were simply not special against the elite, had two loosing streaks because of confusion. Amazingly didn't have the best record. They couldn't meddle out who was the leader and lost a lot of big games because of it. They took alternate games to assert themselves.

Dwight Howard was simply not a superstar the last two months. I criticized him for not being a leader and being a spectator as his team crumbled.

Derrick Rose had an uncommon domination of PG's in h2h comp.
Team had an uncommon domination of other elite teams
Rose won the most games in the 4th quarter.
Only player top ten ppg and apg.
Team was the best team and kept getting better despite injuries.
Day in and day out was the only player that played hard every game that season.

Lebron was the only real comp but he underachieved with his team.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:26 PM   #38
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanjizzle
against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

no ones gives a shit if u can score 28 points against the bucks.
And when it mattered, Lebron destroyed Rose. 4-1. Nobody gives a shit if you score in the RS, if you can't score for shit in the playoffs.
Lebron: 26/8/7/2/2 on 45/39/86
Rose: 23/4/7/1 on 35/24/82
7% in the 4th quarters.

And no. The last 13 games, they went 11-2 (lost against the Bucks and Cavs).
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:28 PM   #39
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
And when it mattered, Lebron destroyed Rose. 4-1. Nobody gives a shit if you score in the RS, if you can't score for shit in the playoffs.
Lebron: 26/8/7/2/2 on 45/39/86
Rose: 23/4/7/1 on 35/24/82
7% in the 4th quarters.

And no. The last 13 games, they went 11-2 (lost against the Bucks and Cavs).

this thread is about his mvp which is decided in the regular season comprehension is not a skill you have.

and wrong, im talking about the last games against the top 8 teams. like i said no one gives a shit if you can beat scrub teams, its what you do against elite teams.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:30 PM   #40
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
It was definitely the best thing for Lebron that Rose won that year. His last two historic years would have not been sweeps of MVP's that's for sure if Lebron had won that year.

Rose's MVP stands out more when you realize how Lebron, Wade, Kobe and Dwight all had trouble with new teams that were ultra talented. Rose was the one that really mastered that new team situation and he had big injuries, way more responsibility, new coach, best record, dominated the elite after Dec. 8th and his second and third best players underperformed and missed a lot of games.

Lebron and Wade were simply not special against the elite, had two loosing streaks because of confusion. Amazingly didn't have the best record. They couldn't meddle out who was the leader and lost a lot of big games because of it. They took alternate games to assert themselves.

Dwight Howard was simply not a superstar the last two months. I criticized him for not being a leader and being a spectator as his team crumbled.

Derrick Rose had an uncommon domination of PG's in h2h comp.
Team had an uncommon domination of other elite teams
Rose won the most games in the 4th quarter.
Only player top ten ppg and apg.
Team was the best team and kept getting better despite injuries.
Day in and day out was the only player that played hard every game that season.

Lebron was the only real comp but he underachieved with his team.


shit that makes your soul burn slow ...
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:33 PM   #41
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanjizzle
this thread is about his mvp which is decided in the regular season comprehension is not a skill you have.
And this thread is also not about playing against the top teams. Doesn't matter if Lebron played better against the Raptors or Bucks. He averaged more than Rose. Lebron had better stats and was a flat out better player. He was/is/and will always be better than Rose. He should have won the MVP.
Lerbon was a better passer, rebounder, scorer and defender than Rose.

Lebron >>>>>>>> Rose any way you look at it.
If you're suggesting that the Bulls >> the Heat in the RS, then I'd agree with you. Replace Rose with Lebron on that Bulls team and they win the title.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:34 PM   #42
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
And when it mattered, Lebron destroyed Rose. 4-1. Nobody gives a shit if you score in the RS, if you can't score for shit in the playoffs.
Lebron: 26/8/7/2/2 on 45/39/86
Rose: 23/4/7/1 on 35/24/82
7% in the 4th quarters.

And no. The last 13 games, they went 11-2 (lost against the Bucks and Cavs).
MVP is a regular season award.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:34 PM   #43
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyMontana
I'm not RG and I assure you there is no "anti Bulls" agenda. I am saying that Noah is a more valuable player to that team than Rose. If you were an actual Bulls fan that wouldn't be so offensive and we could argue it, but you are clearly just a Rose/Jordan stan.

Rose is a good regular season player. He will be able to pad his stats and secure additional wins for the team against the irrelevant ball clubs.

But in the playoffs when your playing real defenses, Noah is the teams most important player, especially if you want to beat Miami. Without him there is no chance of that happening.

Look at how Rose's FG% shrank when he had to play the Heat in 2011. His penetration game wasn't working when he had to go around guys like LeBron, Wade, and Chalmers. A 6'2 guard can only effect the game so much, and against bigger and competitive athletes you are not going to get clean looks like you do in the regular season vs the Sacramento Kings.

If you want to beat Miami it has to happen in the paint because the team is weak there. Noah clowns Bosh every time these teams play eachother and that has to be exploited. Your not beating Miami on the perimeter, guys like Butler and Deng are good to slow LeBron down , but that's all your going to do with that matchup.

Your subpar perimeter players just cannot match up with the greatness that is known as LeBron James. You better make sure your bigs dominate their matchup to counteract the damage or your going to be going home early.

Noah prevents easy baskets an GETS easy baskets. Elite rim defender and rebounder. Smart offensive player that helps the teams in ways other than ball domination.

To be honest with you Noah sucked that year. Never got it going in the regular season. Was benched in the playoffs in the 4th quarter that year in the playoffs! Even drew the wrath of Pippen and Thibes. You just made a mistake here. Their best season was, was Rose's MVP run when Noah played about 20 good games (regular season and playoffs combined) and Rose carried them. You have to be out of your mind if you think Noah could do that with any team. They are on a whole new level with Rose.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:38 PM   #44
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Agreed. It was really bad
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Old 07-21-2013, 05:18 PM   #45
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Default Re: Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Same reason Shaq didn't deserve MVP in 2001. You don't get the award when there is a co-alpha on your team, like Kobe was putting up an absurd 29/5/5 and essentially being the team's closer late in games. Iverson was a 5'11 lone gunner and playmaker on a team full of defensive role players. His season in CONTEXT is much more impressive. His load, and pressure was much heavier.

Shaq was actually the Lakers leading scorer in thew 4th quarter during the '01 regular season with a slight edge of 7.1 ppg to Kobe's 6'9. ppg in the 4th.

Besides, I'm not sure how much Kobe can be held against Shaq during that regular season since the Lakers went 11-3 without him.

Also not sure how Iverson or Rose's height makes them more valuable. If anything, the opposite is true considering it limits how much they can impact a game defensively. Both were on teams that were elite rebounding teams and elite defensive teams which is one of the issues I have with their MVPs and the perception that they did everything for the teams.

Considering how crucial that late game stretch was when Kobe was injured with the West so close, how dominant Shaq was and the momentum to finish the season on an 8 game winning streak getting the number 2 seed and setting up the playoffs run. That's more than enough for me.

Of course, I do factor in individual dominance and best player to some degree. I think the award should be somewhat representative of that, which is why I also have Kobe as the '06 MVP for example.

Quote:
Give it to Dwight? Why? He had more offensive weapons than Rose on his team, and he wasn't NEAR as clutch as Rose was all season. Derrick single handedly in certain games turned losses into wins with 4th quarter take overs and come backs on his shoulders.

Dwight didn't have great offensive talent around him either. J-Rich was primarily a streaky shooter. Hedo was a decent role player, but not at his '08 or '09 level, or even close. Pretty inconsistent as well. Jameer wasn't that good. Never a natural playmaker, had a tendency to overdribble and he often took bad shots. He was skilled, but also inconsistent and not a big impact player. Brandon Bass was a good offensive 4 with a nice mid-range shot, and Anderson was a stretch 4 who made a lot of 3s, but that was the extent of his offensive game. JJ Redick was a good shooter, little more.

None of them were really consistent, and which of these players could create their own shot. Nelson, and sometimes Turkoglu.

Boozer was still a better offensive player than any of those players, Deng as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
They had the EXACT same pieces that allowed the Magic to be ranked the number 1 defense in 2009, though?

And they remained elite defensively at number 3. Although they didn't have the exact same pieces either. 2009 team had Mickael Pietrus, Courtney Lee, Rashard Lewis, Marcin Gortat, Anthony Johnson.

2011 team had J-Rich, Brandon Bass, Ryan Anderson and broken down Gilbert Arenas instead of those players.

I'd say that's a downgrade defensively if anything.

Quote:
Dwight brings the most impact on defense, he's a big man, that's his side of the ball to dominate.

Rose brings the most impact on offense, he's a combo guard, that's his side of the ball to dominate. And he was the only reason their offense was respectable.

Except Dwight's offense was far closer to Rose's defense. That's the difference, Dwight was the best defensive player in the game, but he still averaged 23/14.

If you take Dwight off that Magic team, they're terrible. They lost their elite defense and are probably among the worst defensively, they'd probably regularly get outrebounded and drop from an average offensive team to among the worst.
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