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Old 06-28-2013, 05:12 PM   #16
Legends66NBA7
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by (e)
Jordan in general gets underrated here. I'd bet most posters have never watched him play outside of highlights.

And even then, the majority ranks him as the greatest of all-time. How is he underrated ?
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
And even then, the majority ranks him as the greatest of all-time. How is he underrated ?

Exactly. With the deification of MJ and everything he did as a basketball player, I don't see how it's humanly possible to say that anything about him can be considered "underrated."
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

The "Jordan rules" were in full effect in 98. How is it that a 34 year old Jordan takes more ft's (8.8) than he has since the 1989 season (9.8) when he was 25? He was attacking the rim less and less as he got older...yet somehow he averages the most ft's since about 10 years ago? You couldn't even breathe on him in 98.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by tikay0
Broken down to the tee. I totally remember the MJ/cigar cutter incident. That was the biggest news at my school for like a week.
For the record that incident happened after the 98 championship, so the only effect it had was on Wizards Jordan.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:19 PM   #20
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Unhappy Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Pippen was a shell of himself in the playoffs offensively for the entire 2nd three-peat.

People want to complain about Wade's nagging injuries in 2012 and 2013, his offensive numbers were much more appealing than what Pip brought to that table on offense. And Wade's still had some major games where he took over and won contests in both the 2012 and 2013 playoffs / Finals.

And even though Pippen was clearly the better defender, the difference between Pippen and Wade's defense is closer than Pippen's abilities and production on offense compared to Wade.

MJ's '98 is very slept on. He had no business being the best player in the league, or the MVP. Had a damn near cut off finger due to a cigar accident after the last championship, a messed up shooting wrist all season, and he dragged the Bulls with no Pippen for half the season, a Rodman that wasn't as focused as seasons prior, with Jason Caffey being arguably the Bulls 2nd best player until Pippen came back.

He was amazing, all season. 35 years old, you shouldn't be willing your team to championships. That's MAJOR heart right there.

This happened after the final championship.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:21 PM   #21
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by TheAnchorman
For the record that incident happened after the 98 championship, so the only effect it had was on Wizards Jordan.

OK.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by Smoke117
The "Jordan rules" were in full effect in 98. How is it that a 34 year old Jordan takes more ft's (8.8) than he has since the 1989 season (9.8) when he was 25? He was attacking the rim less and less as he got older...yet somehow he averages the most ft's since about 10 years ago? You couldn't even breathe on him in 98.
League rules on defending perimeter players were gradually getting softer post 1994, and of course MJ was getting very savvy in his techniques drawing fouls. Don't sound so bitter that MJ pulled the Bulls weight without Pippen.

Correction, the cigar incident was summer of '98, I got it confused. My fault. That must have been one hell of a drunk night that MJ cut his own finger with a cigar cutter ... so tipsy he thought his finger was a stogie?

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Old 06-28-2013, 05:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by lakers_forever

Look at what he did to the Spurs (basically the team that won it all in 99) with a near prime Robinson (21, 10, 2) and a rookie Tim Duncan (averaged 21, 11,2 - no question better than this years version of Duncan).

Does anybody seriously believe those Bulls would not have finished the 2013 Spurs in less than 7 games?

If Hibbert did that to the heat, the 1998 Spurs with Robinson and Duncan could sweep them.

What does Jordan do to stop guys like Hibbert/Duncan/Robinson/big men?

Nothing. His team just had better rebounders and interior defenders. See 1995 without Horace Grant/Rodman and look at how Shaq/Horace destroyed them. Bulls didn't win shit when in the same boat as LeBrons Heat.

I don't think anyone has ever argued that these Heat teams are better than the 90s Bulls. These Heat teams are one of the most FLAWED champions of all-time. No other champion has ever had as glaring a weakness in the interior as the Heat.

LeBron has to be his teams best scorer, rebounder, perimeter defender, post defender, facilitator, ball handler EVERYTHING for his Heat to have a chance at winning against quality teams in the playoffs. He has performed beautifully when facing adversity these past two years. The best among any perimeter player ever.

Anyone that doesn't see LeBron is more valuable to his team is just a victim of Jordan propaganda or a Jordan dicksucker. Take your pick.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
League rules on defending perimeter players were gradually getting softer post 1994, and of course MJ was getting very savvy in his techniques drawing fouls. Don't sound so bitter that MJ pulled the Bulls weight without Pippen.

Correction, the cigar incident was summer of '98, I got it confused. My fault. That must have been one hell of a drunk night that MJ cut his own finger with a cigar cutter ... so tipsy he thought his finger was a stogie?


I don't give a shit about that. I watched the Bulls play...with his retirement announcement before the season and all that shit...he was getting every single call. It is just absurd for a player to average more ft's than he has since he was 25 at 34 when his game had changed and he was shooting jump shots more than he was attacking the rim.

Would you shut the **** up about Scottie Pippen? I've never made a thread on him and haven't really cared to post much of anything in threads about him in over a year. You're a ****ing Jordan stan who needs to stfu.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana
What does Jordan do to stop guys like Hibbert/Duncan/Robinson/big men?

Nothing. His team just had better rebounders and interior defenders. See 1995 without Horace Grant/Rodman and look at how Shaq/Horace destroyed them. Bulls didn't win shit when in the same boat as LeBrons Heat.

I don't think anyone has ever argued that these Heat teams are better than the 90s Bulls. These Heat teams are one of the most FLAWED champions of all-time. No other champion has ever had as glaring a weakness in the interior as the Heat.

LeBron has to be his teams best scorer, rebounder, perimeter defender, post defender, facilitator, ball handler EVERYTHING for his Heat to have a chance at winning against quality teams in the playoffs. He has performed beautifully when facing adversity these past two years. The best among any perimeter player ever.

Anyone that doesn't see LeBron is more valuable to his team is just a victim of Jordan propaganda or a Jordan dicksucker. Take your pick.

he doesn't need to guard them. He can just average 50ppg taking every open jumpshot the Spurs give him.

Last edited by dh144498 : 06-28-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:30 PM   #26
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

I'd pick this Lebron over 1998 MJ since he seems to have put his mental issues behind him for the most part, and is one of the two best elimination game performers in history (with Jordan).

Probably not prime Kobe. I just don't think he was ever at 'that' level.

1998 MJ was still a fantastic player though, and I agree he was underrated. At that point, it was becoming arguable that Shaq was the best player in the league, but no one doubts MJ's intangibles. The Bulls team, practically on life support at the time, with Pippen now offensively inept... MJ willed that team to a championship. One of the most remarkable things I've ever seen.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by K Xerxes
I'd pick this Lebron over 1998 MJ since he seems to have put his mental issues behind him for the most part, and is one of the two best elimination game performers in history (with Jordan).

Probably not prime Kobe. I just don't think he was ever at 'that' level.

1998 MJ was still a very very good player. At that point, it was becoming arguable that Shaq was the best player in the league, but no one doubts MJ's intangibles. The Bulls team, practically on life support at the time, with Pippen now offensively inept... MJ willed that team to a championship. One of the most remarkable things I've ever seen.


How was Pippen offensively inept? In the finals he was averaging 20pts in the first four games on good efficiency while playing dominant defense. He was the favorite to win the FMVP that series until he hurt his back in game 5.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:34 PM   #28
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana
LeBron has to be his teams best scorer, rebounder, perimeter defender, post defender, facilitator, ball handler EVERYTHING for his Heat to have a chance at winning against quality teams in the playoffs. He has performed beautifully when facing adversity these past two years. The best among any perimeter player ever.
That's not true, remove LeCock from your mouth.

You're warping the context to prop LeBron up. LeBron headed to Miami and picked Wade and Bosh specifically to play with for a reason. LeBron doesn't have to do all that ... but his game is kind of selfish in a different way, that in order for him to be engaged he has to do all of that or else he stands around and becomes apathetic or un-engaged.

If he could do everything you say, and all he needed was interior defense and rebounding ... he would've stayed in Cleveland, or went to Chicago. He picked Miami because of Wade.

LeBron's off the ball game is atrocious. Let's not act like even hobbled D-Wade wasn't creating plays when given opportunities. And he'd be in even more rhythm to do it if LeBron didn't have to dominate the ball as much. His game demands he do everything. LeBron is so versatile and talented, that he's a jack of all trades, but can't master any thing in particular in order to play a role when needed to allow teammates game's to flourish.

Wade and Bosh aren't Wade and Bosh anymore. By '91, MJ pulled his game back, became a utility man in order to let Pippen grow. And it worked. it seems like for Miami to win, Wade and Bosh had to make a conscious effort to play second fiddle. That's why it's amazing they keep winning, their games (specifically LeBron and Wade) become redundant. They both can't be on the top of their games producing max effort at the same time. They keep winning because they are just so much more talented than the rest of the league.

Stop pretending like Bron is dragging scrubs. Otherwise he wouldn't have shot his legend in the foot by looking like a coward heading to Miami in the first place.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:36 PM   #29
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana
What does Jordan do to stop guys like Hibbert/Duncan/Robinson/big men?

Nothing. His team just had better rebounders and interior defenders. See 1995 without Horace Grant/Rodman and look at how Shaq/Horace destroyed them. Bulls didn't win shit when in the same boat as LeBrons Heat.

I don't think anyone has ever argued that these Heat teams are better than the 90s Bulls. These Heat teams are one of the most FLAWED champions of all-time. No other champion has ever had as glaring a weakness in the interior as the Heat.

LeBron has to be his teams best scorer, rebounder, perimeter defender, post defender, facilitator, ball handler EVERYTHING for his Heat to have a chance at winning against quality teams in the playoffs. He has performed beautifully when facing adversity these past two years. The best among any perimeter player ever.

Anyone that doesn't see LeBron is more valuable to his team is just a victim of Jordan propaganda or a Jordan dicksucker. Take your pick.

No one's putting a gun to the head of Spoelstra/LeBron and forcing them not to give Chris Bosh touches down low.

LeBron's playmaking is some what overstated, he needs to dominate the ball to control the game and needs to have other players basically be reduced to spot up shooters if he can't beat his man off the dribble.

The Heat aren't flawed so much as that's just the style of play suited to LeBron.

Wade/Bosh are basically reduced to being spot up shooters in Miami's offense many times. I think the "he makes his teammates better" thing is a bit of a myth honestly, Wade and Bosh have regressed a lot with LeBron.

The Bulls beat several teams with better bigs -- the Knicks, the Magic in '96, the Sonics, Malone and the Jazz twice all the time. The Pistons still had a better front line in '91 too. Yes Orlando was able to exploit them in '95, but they basically made no attempt to replace any of Grant's rebounding that year and Jordan was rusty.

Yes they needed at least one player who could rebound the ball, lol, but that was about it.

Last edited by Soundwave : 06-28-2013 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:41 PM   #30
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Default Re: 1998 Jordan gets underrated by most here.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
That's not true, remove LeCock from your mouth.

You're warping the context to prop LeBron up. LeBron headed to Miami and picked Wade and Bosh specifically to play with for a reason. LeBron doesn't have to do all that ... but his game is kind of selfish in a different way, that in order for him to be engaged he has to do all of that or else he stands around and becomes apathetic or un-engaged.

If he could do everything you say, and all he needed was interior defense and rebounding ... he would've stayed in Cleveland, or went to Chicago. He picked Miami because of Wade.

LeBron's off the ball game is atrocious. Let's not act like even hobbled D-Wade wasn't creating plays when given opportunities. And he'd be in even more rhythm to do it if LeBron didn't have to dominate the ball as much. His game demands he do everything. LeBron is so versatile and talented, that he's a jack of all trades, but can't master any thing in particular in order to play a role when needed to allow teammates game's to flourish.

Wade and Bosh aren't Wade and Bosh anymore. By '91, MJ pulled his game back, became a utility man in order to let Pippen grow. And it worked. it seems like for Miami to win, Wade and Bosh had to make a conscious effort to play second fiddle. That's why it's amazing they keep winning, their games (specifically LeBron and Wade) become redundant. They both can't be on the top of their games producing max effort at the same time. They keep winning because they are just so much more talented than the rest of the league.

Stop pretending like Bron is dragging scrubs. Otherwise he wouldn't have shot his legend in the foot by looking like a coward heading to Miami in the first place.

So...... victim of Jordan propaganda? or Jordan dicksucker?

My money is on the slurpity slurp slurp.

Who was LeBrons best rebounder/interior defender in Cleveland? Drew Gooden? Big Z, the guy who can't even wipe his ass?

Jordan had Pippen an MVP caliber option in a league where no other team had two MVP caliber players, the best rebounder EVER in Rodman, and the best coach EVER. There is absolutely no comparison in the supporting casts.

Miamis advantage over the league is LeBron James and their depth of shooters where a number of guys can step up when the others have cold nights shooting.

Wade and Bosh can step up some nights, but Wades mid range game was on for like two games out of the 20 playoff games. Without Wades mid range game he is a role player which he was for almost all of the playoffs except Game 4 and 7 of the Finals. It's still more than anyone could do in Cleveland though.

Bosh is a big that gets bent over by anyone that plays slightly physical. 0 points in Game 7 for a guy thats strength is his jump shot. Some superstar huh. Give the Heat Rodman instead of Bosh and you'd see some real ****ing shit. 72 wins every year.
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