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Old 06-29-2013, 10:59 AM   #121
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I agree. Thats why I prefaced my statement by saying or better yet never did it. He was more than capable. Obviously, if he set out to score like that he could. But still the fact remains he never did it. So now were supposed to believe that a guy that hovered around 25-26 ppg for his prime, would avg 30 ppg? In an era where the available shot attempts are cut by roughly 20-25%? Better yet 30/14/8? GTFO

I think both sides tend to exaggerate quite a bit. Bird wouldn't be a 30/10/10 player today, of course not. But simply cutting down his numbers is the wrong approach, too. To me, the most likely scenario is something pretty much along his real stats depending on the players he's surrounded with. He wouldn't be god, but besides some sub par playoff runs he'd also have stretches of being the clear cut best player on the planet today.

Also, you raise an interesting point about Bird being capable of scoring more, but never doing it. Looking at his playing style, I'd say a ball dominating role wouldn't suit his skillset and also his physical limitations. People kinda underestimate how incredibly skilled a player has to be to survive amongst all these athletic freaks. And with Bird playing a one man army role for maybe 40 mpg, his all around production would probably suffer quite a bit.
I don't know, Bird was of course capable of averaging 30 ppg, but the downsides of that role should be taken into account, too.

That's the reason why I'd prefer Lebron in a ball dominant role. His durability and physical dominance makes him more suited for that. But Bird is a much more versatile offensive player, so it really comes down to the players they're supposed to work with. So both extremes are a bit silly to me. Bird and Magic would of course dominate today, but they wouldn't completely annihilate everybody.

Last edited by dr.hee : 06-29-2013 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:22 AM   #122
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

80s NBA basketball averaged up to 115 poss. a game (pace)... 20+ more than today.... thats a much higher pace, especially for the showtime Lakers & Celtics who probably had the highest pace of those 80s teams... Not even the most famous run-n-gun team of this era (~2006 Phoenix Suns) averaged over 96 poss. a game....

So, i think its not very likely they would average more than they did.... the game is just slower today, more thinking, more half-court offense, ofcourse anybody would love to hurry up with the possessions, but teams wont allow you to do it as efficiently you were able to in the 80s...

Last edited by pauk : 06-29-2013 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:37 AM   #123
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
ISHers severely under-rating Magic's offense here.

Do fans here really believe that Magic could "only" average 20 ppg? Here was a player who could hang 42 in a clinching Finals game in his rookie season. A player who was averaging 18 ppg on .561 and .565 FG%'s, and then had playoff runs of 22 ppg on .537 and .539 shooting. And seasons of 24 ppg and playoffs of 25 ppg. All while handing out 12+ apg in the regular season, and as high as 15 apg in the playoffs. He even had a Finals of 26 ppg, on .541 shooting, with 13 apg (as well as Finals' of 21 ppg on .573 shooting, and 22 ppg on .550 shooting.)

Psileas' research turned up a stretch in which Magic had 11 straight games of 30+ points. THAT is what Magic was capable of, had he been so inclined. My god, a 36 year old HIV Magic, four years removed from playing, and overweight, averaged 15 ppg on .466 shooting, with 6.9 apg...all while playing less than 30 minutes a game. Included were stretchs in which he averaged 20 ppg, including a high of 28 (on 9-12 shooting from the floor.)

Ask Magic to score first, and pass second, and he likely could have approached 30 ppg.
Again, the same logic applies, sure he could if he set out to do it. But that wasnt his game. Why do you even want to turn him into Michael Jordan? Magic was great in his own right.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:38 AM   #124
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
ISHers severely under-rating Magic's offense here.

Do fans here really believe that Magic could "only" average 20 ppg? Here was a player who could hang 42 in a clinching Finals game in his rookie season. A player who was averaging 18 ppg on .561 and .565 FG%'s, and then had playoff runs of 22 ppg on .537 and .539 shooting. And seasons of 24 ppg and playoffs of 25 ppg. All while handing out 12+ apg in the regular season, and as high as 15 apg in the playoffs. He even had a Finals of 26 ppg, on .541 shooting, with 13 apg (as well as Finals' of 21 ppg on .573 shooting, and 22 ppg on .550 shooting.)

Psileas' research turned up a stretch in which Magic had 11 straight games of 30+ points. THAT is what Magic was capable of, had he been so inclined. My god, a 36 year old HIV Magic, four years removed from playing, and overweight, averaged 15 ppg on .466 shooting, with 6.9 apg...all while playing less than 30 minutes a game. Included were stretchs in which he averaged 20 ppg, including a high of 28 (on 9-12 shooting from the floor.)

Ask Magic to score first, and pass second, and he likely could have approached 30 ppg.

Nice post, JLauber.
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:01 PM   #125
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
80s NBA basketball averaged up to 115 poss. a game (pace)... 20+ more than today.... thats a much higher pace, especially for the showtime Lakers & Celtics who probably had the highest pace of those 80s teams... Not even the most famous run-n-gun team of this era (~2006 Phoenix Suns) averaged over 96 poss. a game....

So, i think its not very likely they would average more than they did.... the game is just slower today, more thinking, more half-court offense, ofcourse anybody would love to hurry up with the possessions, but teams wont allow you to do it as efficiently you were able to in the 80s...
Funny thing is, neither the Lakers or Celtics had the highest oace in the 80s. The Celtics were routinely near the bottom, whike the Lakers were middle of the pack.
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:31 PM   #126
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
80s NBA basketball averaged up to 115 poss. a game (pace)... 20+ more than today.... thats a much higher pace, especially for the showtime Lakers & Celtics who probably had the highest pace of those 80s teams... Not even the most famous run-n-gun team of this era (~2006 Phoenix Suns) averaged over 96 poss. a game....

So, i think its not very likely they would average more than they did.... the game is just slower today, more thinking, more half-court offense, ofcourse anybody would love to hurry up with the possessions, but teams wont allow you to do it as efficiently you were able to in the 80s...
What was the Lakers pace in 90 when Magic won mvp?
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:52 PM   #127
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by Psileas
Well, I don't recall this specific number, maybe you meant something else. However, you can see that in the 1987 season, there's a 34 game stretch when Magic averages 27.0 ppg (on 52.2% FG) in no more than 38.3 mpg, to go with his usual 11.8 apg and 6.1 rpg. Magic never cared to dominate the ball or shoot that much. But, whenever he wanted to turn it on, he had no problem putting up LeBron-like scoring numbers. But that wasn't what made his teammates better and himself happy.

Sorry about that. I was going on memory instead of actually verifying it myself. It could be that I was completely wrong, which is likely; or I read it somewhere else, and by someone else; or the number of games was incorrect.

In any case, I could not find a stretch where Magic scored 30+ in 11 straight games. In fact, MJ's best 30+ run was 11 straight games (and another of 10.)

But thanks for the other info. Clearly, Magic could have scored much more in his career. Those posters claiming he would be around a 20 ppg scorer today must be basing it on his career average.

As a sidenote, Magic had four post-season games of 40+, with a high of 44, which included back-to-back 43 point games in the '90 playoffs.

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 06-29-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:55 PM   #128
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

They would both be top 5 players in the NBA today. Who cares what their stat line would be.
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:56 PM   #129
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Its hard to acknowledge because he coukdnt or never did it when he played. In an era where he had ample opportunity. Comparing guys like Durant and Bryant isnt feasible because they did take shots at a league leading rate.

Heres another example. Bill Russell routinely shot in the mid 40s percent throughout his career. Thats terrible for a center now, but thats was
the norm back then. And if you were to ask me what his percentage woukd be today id say low 50s. The leavue is different.


What? He did that in the 80s. He averaged 19 shots in his career and had 22 shots before. Even after his surgery, he came back and average 20 FGA while he dealt with injuries in 89-90. You really think that he wouldn't have 18-21 shots per game of he played in this era? Especially since he did it against players who played late into the 90s who had the same amount of shots like they did in the 80s. And Bird was better than them. Even old Jordan had 20 shot attempts when he wasn't as agile as he was in the 80s and early 90s. He always had the skill to get his own shot and play within the team offense. These type of skills would go for any era.

You don't think a mid 80s Bird would average about 18-21 shots in the mid 90s (pnly two or three years after he retired)all the way to the early 00s? Especially since he played against some of the best players, and was considered better than all of them except for Jordan?

If you put Bird on another team where he is the number 1 option, which would be most teams, then I don't see why he wouldn't take the most shots of the team. Especially since Mchale is probably better than most teams first option.

Last edited by Micku : 06-29-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 06-29-2013, 05:33 PM   #130
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by Micku
What? He did that in the 80s. He averaged 19 shots in his career and had 22 shots before. Even after his surgery, he came back and average 20 FGA while he dealt with injuries in 89-90. You really think that he wouldn't have 18-21 shots per game of he played in this era? Especially since he did it against players who played late into the 90s who had the same amount of shots like they did in the 80s. And Bird was better than them. Even old Jordan had 20 shot attempts when he wasn't as agile as he was in the 80s and early 90s. He always had the skill to get his own shot and play within the team offense. These type of skills would go for any era.

You don't think a mid 80s Bird would average about 18-21 shots in the mid 90s (pnly two or three years after he retired)all the way to the early 00s? Especially since he played against some of the best players, and was considered better than all of them except for Jordan?

If you put Bird on another team where he is the number 1 option, which would be most teams, then I don't see why he wouldn't take the most shots of the team. Especially since Mchale is probably better than most teams first option.
Lol. I think your being unreasonable bro. Youre totally dismissing my points. And now rehashing.

I already stated you cant compare Jordan and Malone because their situations were different. Thurl Bailey avg roughly 13 shots per game with Utah. Who was Thurl Bailey in late 90s Utah? Jeff Malone was Hornacek, I believe Eaton and Ostertag took the same amount if shots, Antine Carr (late 90s Utahs Thurl Bailey) took only 6 shots. Byron Russell took less shots than the 80s Jazz SF.

The same applies for Jordan and the Bulls. Both Oakley and Grant took more than twice as many shots as Rodman. Kukoc and Armstrong took basically the same shots Pippens FGAs dropped a tad. Longley and Cartwright paralled each other.

So somethings gotta give. If Bird keeps taking the same amount if shots, then the rest of the Celtics numbers fall. Then that starting five isnt that impressive
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Old 06-29-2013, 05:41 PM   #131
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Its like I always said put the 90s Bulls in the 80s and theur stats look on par with the Lakers and Celtics.
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:18 PM   #132
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Well, LeBron averaged 27-7-8...

Considering he is much better, and more athletic than both, I'd say considerably less than what LBJ could muster in today's athletic league, filled with complex defensive schemes and rotations.

Magic: 19-9-5

Bird: 22-6-7

Last edited by TheCorporation : 06-29-2013 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:38 PM   #133
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by TheCorporation
Well, LeBron averaged 27-7-8...

Considering he is much better, and more athletic than both, I'd say considerably less than what LBJ could muster in today's athletic league, filled with complex defensive schemes and rotations.

Magic: 19-9-5

Bird: 22-6-7
Trolling? Must be...

If not:
Just the PPG you listed for either player is LMFAO-worthy. And how would the best PG ever not average over 9 assists per game?
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:39 PM   #134
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Trolling? Must be...

If not:
Just the PPG you listed for either player is LMFAO-worthy. And how would the best PG ever not average over 9 assists per game?

Pace.

Rondo was the only player to get over 9.7 and he INTENTIONALLY gives up shots to pad his assists. Shit, CP3, D-WIll, etc couldn't get 10. Not even close...
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:42 PM   #135
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Pace.

Rondo was the only player to get over 9.7 and he INTENTIONALLY gives up shots to pad his assists. Shit, CP3, D-WIll, etc couldn't get 10. Not even close...
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