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Old 06-28-2013, 04:24 PM   #91
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
The league is different now. For example. In 1988, the year Bird avg.30 ppg, the Celtics team he played on took 6905 shots. That was fourth lowest for that year. In 2013, 6905 FGA would place a team third.

Theres no way Bird would be able to get up enough shots to come close to 30 ppg. The same applies to rebounds and assists. And dont forget FTs dont count as a FGA. So a portion of the points off FTs woukd be negated as well

24/8/6 for Bird

17/6/10 for Magic
So, despite being a better player than Durant, Bird would only manage to put up roughly the same RPG and APG numbers, but with 4 fewer PPG? Please.

Bird would be something like a 26-28 PPG, 8-10 RPG, 6-8 APG player on high efficiency, even in this era.
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:25 PM   #92
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by fpliii
Bird would definitely be in the conversation for best in the game, Magic would be top 5 (best PG, ahead of CP3).
Magic only top 5? I think it'd be something like this: 1a.) LeBron, 1.b) Bird, a very close 2.) Magic, decent sized gap 4.) Durant
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:44 PM   #93
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by KG215
Magic only top 5? I think it'd be something like this: 1a.) LeBron, 1.b) Bird, a very close 2.) Magic, decent sized gap 4.) Durant

Well if we're talking 87-91 Magic I think he'd be higher, but I've been watching a lot of Bird recently (and looking at the team impact numbers), and he seems to clearly be on another level before getting hurt. I don't think pre-prime Magic is a tier above Current KD. This season, my top 4 were

LeBron

Durant


CP3/Duncan

and a bit of a gap afterwards. I think Bird would be at or around LeBron, but it's a really tough call. You're getting so much defensively out of LeBron for a wing (not peak Pippen/Rodman levels, but not very far off) because of the tremendous help D. Larry is underrated defensively nowadays, but LeBron has been something else.

Unlike Bird who was arguably the best in the league from when he came in (HM: Kareem + Doc, and Moses maybe for a while), Magic has a clearly-defined prime, during which I'm sure he would contend for the best in the league. Before then though, while he'd be top 5 (or I guess top 4), I think he's below the big 3 (LeBron, Bird, KD).

Just my $0.02 though.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:29 PM   #94
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by fpliii
Well if we're talking 87-91 Magic I think he'd be higher, but I've been watching a lot of Bird recently (and looking at the team impact numbers), and he seems to clearly be on another level before getting hurt. I don't think pre-prime Magic is a tier above Current KD. This season, my top 4 were

LeBron

Durant


CP3/Duncan

and a bit of a gap afterwards. I think Bird would be at or around LeBron, but it's a really tough call. You're getting so much defensively out of LeBron for a wing (not peak Pippen/Rodman levels, but not very far off) because of the tremendous help D. Larry is underrated defensively nowadays, but LeBron has been something else.

Unlike Bird who was arguably the best in the league from when he came in (HM: Kareem + Doc, and Moses maybe for a while), Magic has a clearly-defined prime, during which I'm sure he would contend for the best in the league. Before then though, while he'd be top 5 (or I guess top 4), I think he's below the big 3 (LeBron, Bird, KD).

Just my $0.02 though.
Fair enough. I've read and heard some of the same things about Bird. Not being around at the time, it's hard to really know for sure, but I know I've read things and have seen people mention before that, at the time, Bird was considered the better player until injuries started to slow him down. I have always thought (again, it's very limited knowledge on my part) Bird's peak was higher than Magic's.

With Durant, I try to stay objective, but a part of me also thinks he's a lot better than current fans realize. For starters, I don't think there's some unbelievably huge gap between him and LeBron like a lot of people, though I will admit there's still a noticeable gap. But I also think he just had, at worst, a top 25 all-time peak season, if not top 20. So maybe it would depend on which version of Magic you put in today's NBA. Like you said, though, 1987-1991 Magic would definitely be be ranked ahead of Durant, but there are probably versions of Magic prior to 1987 that wouldn't.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:38 PM   #95
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

In an era where team defense is more emphasised, I think Bird would edge LeBron as best player in the league. He wouldn't be as good a defender, but the gap offensively would be bigger than the gap defensively.

Second best player... hard to say between Magic and LeBron. Probably LeBron since Magic isn't really close as a defender.

Not sure what they'd average. I'm guessing around 26-10-7 for Bird, and 20-7-13 for Magic.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:40 PM   #96
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

I think there's a chance fringe 20-25 is still underselling KD. There aren't many non-big peaks you'd put ahead of him, though I won't attempt to quantify exactly. I think it's unfortunate that he's playing in the same league as LeBron, since it forces unfavorable comparisons. Then again, KD is likely not yet in his prime. I probably sound like a broken record, but I think it's a waste forcing him to play point forward. While I like his current defensive intensity, as I've said before, I think he needs to focus on crashing the boards hard. Not to sound like a broken record, but he has the tools to be a top 5 rebounder in this league (consistently has hurt him, as you've said, but maybe we'll see improvement next year).
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Old 06-28-2013, 06:04 PM   #97
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
He could without a doubt score iso in the post. The guy did drop 60 in a game and he did average 30 in a season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto2_oYVs0I

I really don't see Bird having a problem scoring 26-28 a night on a team with no scorers, he was an elite shooter, moved well off the ball, and had a terrific post game. It's not like he depended on screens and picks to score all the time.

Do you see the defense being played in this game? ****in terrible!






to say people like to claim there was a lot of hand checking, I sure didn't see much hand checking in that video
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Old 06-28-2013, 06:20 PM   #98
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by aburre21
Do you see the defense being played in this game? ****in terrible!






to say people like to claim there was a lot of hand checking, I sure didn't see much hand checking in that video
Lol that was 80s basketball. Teams tried to outscore each other.


Alot of those guys looked high as well.
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Old 06-28-2013, 06:32 PM   #99
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Alot of your Malone argument can be because he played on a different team of players. The Jazz went from a team built around offense to defense. The late 90s Jazz had no Thurl Bailey.

Jordan is another great example. His shot attempts dropped as the era changed. Take 96 Jordan and infuse him in the 80s and hes pushing 32 ppg on over 50% because hed have more fastbreak attempts.

Erm...this doesn't prove my point that pace and FGA of superstars are not related in this case? He played under a different coach (tho Jerry Sloan been with him since 88), different players, made defense more of a focus, different pace, and almost a decade later. And he still manage to average about the same shots as he did in the 87-88, and have the same amount of points. If K.Malone could it, why couldn't Bird with more offensive skills do it?

Not to mention you do have Kevin Love who had 19 FGAs a game last year. Carmelo was averaging 22.2 FGA this year. Bird is better than both of those two offensively.

And Michael Jordan is a good case. His shot attempts actually did not change dramatically like you said. In 1987-88, Jordan average 22.2 FGA. In 1996, Jordan average 22.6 FGA. He averaged slightly more. He averaged 23.8 in 1995. And in the playoffs, Jordan in 1997 had 26.2 FGA. And look at his Wizard years in 2001-02, where the pace was one of the slowest in the league. Jordan average 22.1 FGA. Before all star break, Jordan averaged 24.2 FGAs. Pace does not matter for the amount of shots for superstars.

In terms of efficiency? This would matter a bit. But this goes beyond just defense in case of Jordan. He lost a step, he didn't have much lift in his jumpshot, and he couldn't finish like he used to during his athletic peak. With this said tho, in 96 MJ TS% and eFG% were better than it was in 92. So, in those terms he was more efficient. However, the shorten 3pt line had something to do with it. And MJ 96 basically shot 50%. He was only 0.1 from making his overall FG to 50%.

But as I said, the pace doesn't matter with the FGAs with the superstars. FG% may matter, sure. But players in the 80s also did not take a bunch of 3s and get closer shots. But their eFG are basically the same. Look at the stats for Joe Dumars and Reggie Miller too. When their 3pt shot went up, their FG go down but their eFG remain about the same. If they would not shoot any 3s, they may average 50%+ FG. Especially if they played in their athletic prime.

Last edited by Micku : 06-28-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:19 PM   #100
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by Micku
Erm...this doesn't prove my point that pace and FGA of superstars are not related in this case? He played under a different coach (tho Jerry Sloan been with him since 88), different players, made defense more of a focus, different pace, and almost a decade later. And he still manage to average about the same shots as he did in the 87-88, and have the same amount of points. If K.Malone could it, why couldn't Bird with more offensive skills do it?
Lol. So who took Thurl Baileys shot attempts? Again he had different teammates.


Not to mention you do have Kevin Love who had 19 FGAs a game last year. Carmelo was averaging 22.2 FGA this year. Bird is better than both of those two offensively.
And again, I allude to teammates. Neither of the players you mentioned have had the caliber teammates that Bird had. Whos gonna take away their shots?


And Michael Jordan is a good case. His shot attempts actually did not change dramatically like you said. In 1987-88, Jordan average 22.2 FGA. In 1996, Jordan average 22.6 FGA. He averaged slightly more. He averaged 23.8 in 1995. And in the playoffs, Jordan in 1997 had 26.2 FGA. And look at his Wizard years in 2001-02, where the pace was one of the slowest in the league. Jordan average 22.1 FGA. Before all star break, Jordan averaged 24.2 FGAs. Pace does not matter for the amount of shots for superstars.
For the third time, are you factoring in his teammates? How many FGAs did Dennis Rodman take during the second threepeat?As opposed to Charles Oakley and Horace Grant

In terms of efficiency? This would matter a bit. But this goes beyond just defense in case of Jordan. He lost a step, he didn't have much lift in his jumpshot, and he couldn't finish like he used to during his athletic peak. With this said tho, in 96 MJ TS% and eFG% were better than it was in 92. So, in those terms he was more efficient. However, the shorten 3pt line had something to do with it. And MJ 96 basically shot 50%. He was only 0.1 from making his overall FG to 50%.
Or, he got stronger, smarter, and had an improved post game. I honestly dont see how FG% matters.

But as I said, the pace doesn't matter with the FGAs with the superstars. FG% may matter, sure. But players in the 80s also did not take a bunch of 3s and get closer shots. But their eFG are basically the same. Look at the stats for Joe Dumars and Reggie Miller too. When their 3pt shot went up, their FG go down but their eFG remain about the same. If they would not shoot any 3s, they may average 50%+ FG. Especially if they played in their athletic prime.
It just doesnt add up Mick. Id agree that if you took Bird and placed him on a bad team, his ppg would stay the same or even increase because hed be the teams only option on offense. But then you must eliminate the championships and MVPs. Hed become Carmello Anthony. Because he was subpar in the playoffs more often than not.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:49 PM   #101
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
It just doesnt add up Mick. Id agree that if you took Bird and placed him on a bad team, his ppg would stay the same or even increase because hed be the teams only option on offense. But then you must eliminate the championships and MVPs. Hed become Carmello Anthony. Because he was subpar in the playoffs more often than not.
Durant, on one of the best teams in the NBA with another high usage/high volume player, has averaged 28+ PPG the last few seasons. Bird was about as efficient of a scorer as Durant, so why wouldn't he be able to put up something like 26-28 PPG, even on a good team, in today's league?
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:15 PM   #102
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by KG215
Durant, on one of the best teams in the NBA with another high usage/high volume player, has averaged 28+ PPG the last few seasons. Bird was about as efficient of a scorer as Durant, so why wouldn't he be able to put up something like 26-28 PPG, even on a good team, in today's league?
On that Celtics team he aint doing it. In the right situation? Sure. Maybe even twice. Durants more of a scorer than Bird. A hybrid of BBird/Gervin. I see Durant being able to routinely be able to avg 30-32 ppg in the 80s. Something he hasnt been able to accomplish in this era.

And mind you. Your trying to take bits and.pieces from the 89s and infuse it into now. What's efficient now was not considered efficient in the 80s. The avg FG% now is roughly 44-45%. It was about 48% in Birds day.

We must take all factors into play

Last edited by 97 bulls : 06-28-2013 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:21 PM   #103
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
On that Celtics team he aint doing it. In the right situation? Sure. Maybe even twice. Durants more of a scorer than Bird. A hybrid of BBird/Gervin. I see Durant being able to routinely be able to avg 30-32 ppg in the 80s. Something he hasnt been able to accomplish in this era.

And mind you. Your trying to take bits and.pieces from the 89s and infuse it into now. What's efficient now was not considered efficient in the 80s. The avg FG% now is roughly 44-45%. It was about 48% in Birds day.

We must take all factors into play
Well, in today's NBA, teams couldn't afford a roster as stacked as Bird's Celtics or Magic's Lakers. So using those Celtic teams as a barometer doesn't make much sense to me. He wouldn't be on a team with a McHale, DJ, and Parrish; hardly anyone, other than maybe the Lakers and Celtics, could afford that.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:24 PM   #104
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

People thinking that Bird would average more than 9 rebounds per game in this era are either retarded of stuck in the past.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:27 PM   #105
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Durant gets 4 more points on free throws alone, Bird never had more than 6 FTAs per game in a season. He would have to hoist up 21-22 shots to average more than 28 and I don't see him attempting more than 18 shots per game in today's game.
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