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Old 06-28-2013, 09:30 AM   #76
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

if what everyone is saying is correct than is it safe to say

Bird > James ???
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:37 AM   #77
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDI
if what everyone is saying is correct than is it safe to say

Bird > James ???

Depends on the context imo. If you have some high usage one man army type of team like the Lebron Cavs, it's James all the way for me. Lebron is better "on his own" surrounded by shooters. But give Bird something to work with, and I'd take him instead. For example, Bird instead of Lebron on the 2011 Heat? Championship. On the other hand, if you put Bird on the Cavs instead of James, they won't make the finals.
Pure speculation though...
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:37 AM   #78
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDI
if what everyone is saying is correct than is it safe to say

Bird > James ???
No
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:40 AM   #79
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by Micku
Because it won't apply to superstars that much. Take Karl Malone for example.

In 1987-88, the Utah Jazz pace was 101.5, sixth fastest pace in the league. The team as a whole took 7092 FGA. Karl Malone average 20.1 FGA and average 27.7 ppg.

In 1996-97 (almost a decade later), the Utah Jazz pace was 90.0, 17th place out of 29 teams. The team as a whole took 6217 FGA. Karl Malone average 19.2 FGA and average 27.4 ppg.

Virtually the same despite the transition to fast and slow pace.

To compare, Miami Heat 2013 pace is 90.7. And the team as a whole took 6348. So they are slightly faster.

And this isn't the only example. You have Michael Jordan, Hakeem, Dominique Wilkins, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Barkley and etc. Pace won't affect superstars all that much. They will get their shots, especially someone of the caliber as Larry Bird. It'll affect the role players.
Alot of your Malone argument can be because he played on a different team of players. The Jazz went from a team built around offense to defense. The late 90s Jazz had no Thurl Bailey.

Jordan is another great example. His shot attempts dropped as the era changed. Take 96 Jordan and infuse him in the 80s and hes pushing 32 ppg on over 50% because hed have more fastbreak attempts.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:42 AM   #80
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
Pace isn't going to affect star players like Bird or Magic. What's more likely to affect them is the team they're in and the competition of the era. You can pull numbers from your ass, like I am gonna do below, but in the end its just guesswork. I do think they'd improve on the whole simply because this era isn't as tough as theirs. Below; what is considered a strong/weak team is such a team in the last 5-6 years, not the 80s where 'strong' teams were ridiculously stacked in comparison.

In a strong team:

Bird: 26/12/8 on 50/41/90
Magic: 20/8/13 on 51/30/85

I think both would roughly score similar as they did back in the day if not a bit more because their teams wouldn't be as stacked. I also think their rebounding numbers improve considering the state of big-men in this era and rebounders in general. Bird would particularly improve as he'd not have 2 guys like McHale and Parish to contend with either.

I also think their assists improve because the plays tend to get run through the team's best player a lot more these days. I think Bird would be on the ball even more in this kind of era where in his Celtics he didn't have to dominate the ball as much. Magic, regardless of era, will dominate the ball so I didn't see him improving as much.

I think both would be better 3 point shooters considering the implementation of that shot in this era.

In a weak team:

Bird: 30/13/9 on 48/40/88
Magic: 24/9/14 on 49/30/85

They'd be walking triple-doubles today. Bird would probably lose a bit of efficiency due to being overrun but he was such a talented scorer if needed he could put up 30+ at the drop of a hat. In a weaker side, his rebounding will matter more. I think Magic improves slightly across the board but moreso for scoring. I think his rebounding and assists aren't as affected by the team but his needing to score will improve a lot in a weaker side.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:44 AM   #81
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.hee
Depends on the context imo. If you have some high usage one man army type of team like the Lebron Cavs, it's James all the way for me. Lebron is better "on his own" surrounded by shooters. But give Bird something to work with, and I'd take him instead. For example, Bird instead of Lebron on the 2011 Heat? Championship. On the other hand, if you put Bird on the Cavs instead of James, they won't make the finals.
Pure speculation though...

You do realise that Bird basically took the 2nd worst team to the best regular season record in his Rookie year, and took them to the ECF, losing to the sixers? I don't think its out of the realms of possibility that Bird could have done what Lebron did.

What differentiates Lebron from Bird, and Magic, is that his defending is superb - for me, at an all-time great level because of his adaptability. Magic was average, Bird was a very good defender (especially team defender) but Lebron gains ground on them there.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:45 AM   #82
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Bird would definitely be in the conversation for best in the game, Magic would be top 5 (best PG, ahead of CP3).
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:00 AM   #83
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
You do realise that Bird basically took the 2nd worst team to the best regular season record in his Rookie year, and took them to the ECF, losing to the sixers? I don't think its out of the realms of possibility that Bird could have done what Lebron did.

I'm not sure. The Cavs were pretty much a bunch of shooters with Lebron driving over and over again. While Bird was absolutely able to carry a team, this specific concept won't work with him imo. I think Lebron vs Bird would probably be a tie for best forward in the game today with preference changing depending on the role they're supposed to play.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:02 AM   #84
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.hee
I'm not sure. The Cavs were pretty much a bunch of shooters with Lebron driving over and over again. While Bird was absolutely able to carry a team, this specific concept won't work with him imo. I think Lebron vs Bird would probably be a tie for best forward in the game today with preference changing depending on the role they're supposed to play.

Fair enough. I was talking more general; like if Bird had a few years with a weak team they could eventually compose it into something that would allow Bird to do a similar feat.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:11 AM   #85
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Fair enough. I was talking more general; like if Bird had a few years with a weak team they could eventually compose it into something that would allow Bird to do a similar feat.

Of course he could. My point was basically that Lebron could do more with the Cavs than Bird, mainly due to his physical gifts. Maybe Bird could try the same, but he would break down even quicker than he did in the 80s I think.
But looking at the 2011 finals, I really believe that Bird on such a team would be more lethal than Lebron because of his off the ball skills.

There's some truth to "being good in the flow of the offense". So if you've got a team concept other than a one man show, Bird is as good as it gets. Without that, I'd rather have Lebron dominating the ball.

Last edited by dr.hee : 06-28-2013 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:37 AM   #86
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Pace isn't going to affect star players like Bird or Magic. What's more likely to affect them is the team they're in and the competition of the era. You can pull numbers from your ass, like I am gonna do below, but in the end its just guesswork. I do think they'd improve on the whole simply because this era isn't as tough as theirs. Below; what is considered a strong/weak team is such a team in the last 5-6 years, not the 80s where 'strong' teams were ridiculously stacked in comparison.

In a strong team:

Bird: 26/12/8 on 50/41/90
Magic: 20/8/13 on 51/30/85

I think both would roughly score similar as they did back in the day if not a bit more because their teams wouldn't be as stacked. I also think their rebounding numbers improve considering the state of big-men in this era and rebounders in general. Bird would particularly improve as he'd not have 2 guys like McHale and Parish to contend with either.

I also think their assists improve because the plays tend to get run through the team's best player a lot more these days. I think Bird would be on the ball even more in this kind of era where in his Celtics he didn't have to dominate the ball as much. Magic, regardless of era, will dominate the ball so I didn't see him improving as much.

I think both would be better 3 point shooters considering the implementation of that shot in this era.

In a weak team:

Bird: 30/13/9 on 48/40/88
Magic: 24/9/14 on 49/30/85

They'd be walking triple-doubles today. Bird would probably lose a bit of efficiency due to being overrun but he was such a talented scorer if needed he could put up 30+ at the drop of a hat. In a weaker side, his rebounding will matter more. I think Magic improves slightly across the board but moreso for scoring. I think his rebounding and assists aren't as affected by the team but his needing to score will improve a lot in a weaker side.



very similar to what I had.
the truth.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:37 AM   #87
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

lebron stans in this thread mad that Bird and Magic can put up better statlines than Lebron.

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Old 06-28-2013, 01:06 PM   #88
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dh144498
lebron stans in this thread mad that Bird and Magic can put up better statlines than Lebron.

Kobe stan making up nonsense again? What's new?

Magic and Bird could put up better lines than LeBron in your make believe fantasy world, but not in real life. Heck, their 80's stats are inflated and are STILL inferior to LeBron's.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:50 PM   #89
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010splash
Kobe stan making up nonsense again? What's new?

Magic and Bird could put up better lines than LeBron in your make believe fantasy world, but not in real life. Heck, their 80's stats are inflated and are STILL inferior to LeBron's.

Bird is a better player than Lebron, how mad are you, be honest.
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:05 PM   #90
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dh144498
Bird is a better player than Lebron, how mad are you, be honest.
I'm not a "Lebron Stan" but let's be honest both are better than kobe
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