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Old 06-28-2013, 08:27 AM   #61
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

IMO, yes it makes sense to account for pace. If you magically transport the mid 80s celtics to right now, birds rebounding and probably his scoring drop. That said whatever you lose in pace, you'd pick back up through expansion. No team today has anywhere near as much talent around a star as either of those 80 teams did and we know that numbers are context dependant.

That being said there is no situation you could put them in where a prime bird or magic isn't an absolutely elite player in this era. I'm as big of a dirk fan as there is but put bird in dirks place and does anyone really think bird couldn't do the same things plus pass? We love to talk about how athletic the league has gotten as proof that older guys couldn't play now but there have always been athletic freaks in the nba. They might be more prevalent now but there are also plenty of stars who aren't exactly prime mj or Lebron athletically. Kevin love is athletic enough to put up 25/14 but bird couldn't score 25? Please. Paul pierce isn't exactly the most athletic guy in the world and he's putting up 18/6/4 at an old age.

I understand the belief that the current generation is probably More athletic than the last. Advances in medicine, technology and understanding exercise/the human body make that a reality. That said greatness is greatness, and these guys were both legit great players. They'd translate just fine. This isn't the 60s. These guys played against mj and beat him. They played the same guys mj played and dominated to be the consensus goat. If in 2030 we have people with 55 inch verts with 35 foot range and 7 3 guys with handles then by all means have this discussion about them not being able to translate due to athleticism but right now? No. They'd be just fine.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:41 AM   #62
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
IMO, yes it makes sense to account for pace. If you magically transport the mid 80s celtics to right now, birds rebounding and probably his scoring drop. That said whatever you lose in pace, you'd pick back up through expansion. No team today has anywhere near as much talent around a star as either of those 80 teams did and we know that numbers are context dependant.

That being said there is no situation you could put them in where a prime bird or magic isn't an absolutely elite player in this era. I'm as big of a dirk fan as there is but put bird in dirks place and does anyone really think bird couldn't do the same things plus pass? We love to talk about how athletic the league has gotten as proof that older guys couldn't play now but there have always been athletic freaks in the nba. They might be more prevalent now but there are also plenty of stars who aren't exactly prime mj or Lebron athletically. Kevin love is athletic enough to put up 25/14 but bird couldn't score 25? Please. Paul pierce isn't exactly the most athletic guy in the world and he's putting up 18/6/4 at an old age.

I understand the belief that the current generation is probably More athletic than the last. Advances in medicine, technology and understanding exercise/the human body make that a reality. That said greatness is greatness, and these guys were both legit great players. They'd translate just fine. This isn't the 60s. These guys played against mj and beat him. They played the same guys mj played and dominated to be the consensus goat. If in 2030 we have people with 55 inch verts with 35 foot range and 7 3 guys with handles then by all means have this discussion about them not being able to translate due to athleticism but right now? No. They'd be just fine.

This.

The pace argument works for guys like Michael Adams maybe, but Bird and Magic? What a joke. I'm a Mavs fan, and if poor man's Larry Bird can pull off 26/10 playoff runs against anybody today on high percentages for a decade, so could Bird himself. Peja was dropping 24 a game in the "modern era", give me a break.

Last edited by dr.hee : 06-28-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:44 AM   #63
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

In 85-86, Bird had

- the 4th highest ppg (25.8, behind Nique, Dantley, English)
- the 9th highest rpg (9.8)
- the 16th highest apg (6.8)

So, just to take this into context, in the last season, those positions would equal:

- 4th highest ppg: 26.8 (Lebron)
- 9th highest rpg: 11.1 (Reggie Evans)
- 16th highest apg: 6.9 (Ty Lawson).
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:46 AM   #64
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.hee
This.

The pace argument works for guys like Michael Adams maybe, but Bird and Magic? What a joke. I'm a Mavs fan, and if poor man's Larry Bird can pull off 26/10 playoff runs against anybody today on high percentages for a decade, so could Bird himself. Peja was dropping 24 a game in the "modern era", give me a break.


Actually, you need to check the stats.
Bird was great in the reg season, in the playoffs he dropped off markedly - while "poor man's Bird" at least kept his production in the playoffs. You can easily make a pretty good case that "poor man's Bird" was a better playoff performer than the real Bird himself.

Last edited by brain drain : 06-28-2013 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:50 AM   #65
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.hee
This.

The pace argument works for guys like Michael Adams maybe, but Bird and Magic? What a joke. I'm a Mavs fan, and if poor man's Larry Bird can pull off 26/10 playoff runs against anybody today on high percentages for a decade, so could Bird himself. Peja was dropping 24 a game in the "modern era", give me a break.
If Bird were on that Maverick team then sure. But then you gotta take away championships, MVPs etc.

Im just factoring in the whole Celtic team in this era.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:57 AM   #66
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Pace isn't going to affect star players like Bird or Magic. What's more likely to affect them is the team they're in and the competition of the era. You can pull numbers from your ass, like I am gonna do below, but in the end its just guesswork. I do think they'd improve on the whole simply because this era isn't as tough as theirs. Below; what is considered a strong/weak team is such a team in the last 5-6 years, not the 80s where 'strong' teams were ridiculously stacked in comparison.

In a strong team:

Bird: 26/12/8 on 50/41/90
Magic: 20/8/13 on 51/30/85

I think both would roughly score similar as they did back in the day if not a bit more because their teams wouldn't be as stacked. I also think their rebounding numbers improve considering the state of big-men in this era and rebounders in general. Bird would particularly improve as he'd not have 2 guys like McHale and Parish to contend with either.

I also think their assists improve because the plays tend to get run through the team's best player a lot more these days. I think Bird would be on the ball even more in this kind of era where in his Celtics he didn't have to dominate the ball as much. Magic, regardless of era, will dominate the ball so I didn't see him improving as much.

I think both would be better 3 point shooters considering the implementation of that shot in this era.

In a weak team:

Bird: 30/13/9 on 48/40/88
Magic: 24/9/14 on 49/30/85

They'd be walking triple-doubles today. Bird would probably lose a bit of efficiency due to being overrun but he was such a talented scorer if needed he could put up 30+ at the drop of a hat. In a weaker side, his rebounding will matter more. I think Magic improves slightly across the board but moreso for scoring. I think his rebounding and assists aren't as affected by the team but his needing to score will improve a lot in a weaker side.

Last edited by LeBird : 06-28-2013 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:59 AM   #67
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Im not factoring the "pace" stat used for basketball teams. Im factoring in the tempo in which the game was played.

If were using that pace stat, then where would you put the showtime Lakers? Theyre considered one of the greatest fastbreak offenses ever. In 1987, they were 11th in pace.


How about defense? The Bad Boy Pistons are considered one of the greatest defenses ever. They gave up 100.8 ppg in 1989. That would be good for 22nd in todays league.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:02 AM   #68
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brain drain
Actually, you need to check the stats.
Bird was great in the reg season, in the playoffs he dropped off markedly - while "poor man's Bird" at least kept his production in the playoffs. You can easily make a pretty good case that "poor man's Bird" was a better playoff performer than the real Bird himself.

I know the stats, and Dirk actually has a slight edge in scoring efficiency. On the other hand, Bird was doing much more than Nowitzki in terms of playmaking and off the ball movement, so overall, he's still the better player looking at the whole package. Both players have a few sub par playoff runs of course, and Bird was no god. But at his best, he would have a case for top player in the league today, no doubt about it.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:04 AM   #69
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Pace isn't going to affect star players like Bird or Magic. What's more likely to affect them is the team they're in and the competition of the era. You can pull numbers from your ass, like I am gonna do below, but in the end its just guesswork. I do think they'd improve on the whole simply because this era isn't as tough as theirs. Below; what is considered a strong/weak team is such a team in the last 5-6 years, not the 80s where 'strong' teams were ridiculously stacked in comparison.

In a strong team:

Bird: 26/12/8 on 50/41/90
Magic: 20/8/13 on 51/30/85

I think both would roughly score similar as they did back in the day if not a bit more because their teams wouldn't be as stacked. I also think their rebounding numbers improve considering the state of big-men in this era and rebounders in general. Bird would particularly improve as he'd not have 2 guys like McHale and Parish to contend with either.

I also think their assists improve because the plays tend to get run through the best players these days. I think Bird would be on the ball even more in this kind of era where in his Celtics he didn't have to dominate the ball as much. Magic, regardless of era, will dominate the ball so I didn't see him improving as much.

I think both would be better 3 point shooters considering the implementation of that shot in this era.

In a weak team:

Bird: 30/13/9 on 48/40/88
Magic: 24/9/14 on 49/30/87

They'd be walking triple-doubles today. Bird would probably lose a bit of efficiency due to being overrun but he was such a talented scorer if needed he could put up 30+ at the drop of a hat. In a weaker side, his rebounding will matter more. I think Magic improves slightly across the board but moreso for scoring. I think his rebounding and assists aren't as affected by the team but his needing to score will improve a lot in a weaker side.
Lol so theyd get all of the strengths of todays league I.e. better 3pt shooting, iso ability, the offense would change etc? But I also assume you feel theyd still keep their same accomplishments right. Championships, MVPs, etc?
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:11 AM   #70
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

It really depends on the teams they get I guess. They'd certainly win all those accolades; they're too good not to.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:13 AM   #71
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Don't see how Bird is going to average 12-13 rebounds a game in today's league, that's basically what the best rebounder in the NBA gets. Don't you think that's really ridiculous?
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:13 AM   #72
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Bird: Durant with more rebounds and assists, so 28/9/5
Magic: Lebron with less points and more assists, so 23/8/9
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:23 AM   #73
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graviton
Don't see how Bird is going to average 12-13 rebounds a game in today's league, that's basically what the best rebounder in the NBA gets. Don't you think that's really ridiculous?

Who says he would? His carreer average is 10 rpg. So again, what about Dirk like numbers with all time great passing? Let's even say less efficient Nowitzki with great passing. Still Top 3 in the league.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:27 AM   #74
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graviton
Don't see how Bird is going to average 12-13 rebounds a game in today's league, that's basically what the best rebounder in the NBA gets. Don't you think that's really ridiculous?

The best rebounder in the league in the last 5-6 years has averaged 13-15 rebounds per game. That was basically the same for the 80s and Bird averaged 10 per game himself. But Bird averaged 10 per game in an era where the likes of Moses Malone, Barkley, Laimbeer and Hakeem would win rebounding titles and contest him for rebounds. On his own team he was inhibited from even more rebounds because he played with Parish and McHale. So he averaged 10 when on both sides there were tougher challengers stopping him from averaging even more than 10.

So as I said, considering the era (less 'great' rebounders and bigmen) and the implication that his 'strong' team won't take away as many rebounds as the Celtics did, I think its a fair guess that he'd improve his rebounding numbers by 2 in a strong team and 3 in a weak team.

I mean, you're talking about Bird here...a guy who in his 2nd year almost outrebounded a prime Moses Malone in the NBA finals - who is one of the greatest rebounders of all time.

Last edited by LeBird : 06-28-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:28 AM   #75
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
The league is different now. For example. In 1988, the year Bird avg.30 ppg, the Celtics team he played on took 6905 shots. That was fourth lowest for that year. In 2013, 6905 FGA would place a team third.

Theres no way Bird would be able to get up enough shots to come close to 30 ppg. The same applies to rebounds and assists. And dont forget FTs dont count as a FGA. So a portion of the points off FTs woukd be negated as well

24/8/6 for Bird

17/6/10 for Magic

your forgetting that if he was born the 80's and played in todays game, he would have todays training and skillsets as well. He will not be the high short wearing, bushy mustache bird. He would be a shorter but faster dirk, with a higher IQ and passing ability. Not to mention the chunks of ice that would be flowing through his veins.

28 ppg, 8 rebs, 6 asts I believe will be correct
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