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Old 06-30-2013, 05:06 AM   #166
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I never changed my argument. I even stated in the right situation he might be able. Meaning on a bad team. But that woukd be at the expense of championships and MVPs.

The Orlando Magic/Boston Celtic argument is interesting. But you still owe The Magic 300 FGAs. This is why avg FGAs is tricky. Too many variables.
Well, I was arguing that Bird could average a lot of shots in any era. You mentioned the Celtics of the 80s, which is another topic.

A lot of players take at least 19 shots just how players like Kobe, LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem all had great teams that went to the Finals and they average at least 19 shots or more. They did it despite having bad or good teams. Dirk average 19 shots in 2006 when his team went to the finals. Why could they do it and not Bird if he is the number 1 option? That's my argument.

You mentioned the situation, but it would seem like a player of Bird's caliber would be able to do it on most teams today because most teams don't have a second option as good as Mchale or Parish.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:47 PM   #167
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by Micku
What? He did that in the 80s. He averaged 19 shots in his career and had 22 shots before. Even after his surgery, he came back and average 20 FGA while he dealt with injuries in 89-90. You really think that he wouldn't have 18-21 shots per game of he played in this era? Especially since he did it against players who played late into the 90s who had the same amount of shots like they did in the 80s. And Bird was better than them. Even old Jordan had 20 shot attempts when he wasn't as agile as he was in the 80s and early 90s. He always had the skill to get his own shot and play within the team offense. These type of skills would go for any era.

You don't think a mid 80s Bird would average about 18-21 shots in the mid 90s (pnly two or three years after he retired)all the way to the early 00s? Especially since he played against some of the best players, and was considered better than all of them except for Jordan?

If you put Bird on another team where he is the number 1 option, which would be most teams, then I don't see why he wouldn't take the most shots of the team. Especially since Mchale is probably better than most teams first option.
I understand your point Mick. I feel hed be just as skilled, one if the best players in the league, top three or two behind James. How many players today are capable of avg 25/8/7? For all intents and purposes, thats probably about 18-19 shots per game.

And again, you keep comparing Bird to guys that led the league in FGAs. Bird never did that. But hes supposed to do it now? Guys like Iverson, Durant, James, Jordan, led the league in scoring. Hell, in Birds prime, 28 ppg wouldve put you third or even fourth in the league. Now? That leads the league. In the mid 80s, Jordan was avg 25-26 shots per game. In the mid 90s? 23-24. And again, there was reasons why he was able to take that many shots. RODMAN DIDNT SHOOT. He did avg 25 in 95, but I think that can be attributed to him trying to knock out the rust. Pippen missed half the season in 98. Which forced Jordan to assume a larger role offensively meaning more shots.

To be honest, there is no metric you can use to feel Birds dropping 29-30 a night in todays NBA other than nostalgia. This is why I always state no era is better than another. Granted I do feel the centers today are lacking and that guys like Dwight Howard wouldn't be as good back then as they are now
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:00 PM   #168
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I understand your point Mick. I feel hed be just as skilled, one if the best players in the league, top three or two behind James. How many players today are capable of avg 25/8/7? For all intents and purposes, thats probably about 18-19 shots per game.

And again, you keep comparing Bird to guys that led the league in FGAs. Bird never did that. But hes supposed to do it now? Guys like Iverson, Durant, James, Jordan, led the league in scoring. Hell, in Birds prime, 28 ppg wouldve put you third or even fourth in the league. Now? That leads the league. In the mid 80s, Jordan was avg 25-26 shots per game. In the mid 90s? 23-24. And again, there was reasons why he was able to take that many shots. RODMAN DIDNT SHOOT. He did avg 25 in 95, but I think that can be attributed to him trying to knock out the rust. Pippen missed half the season in 98. Which forced Jordan to assume a larger role offensively meaning more shots.

To be honest, there is no metric you can use to feel Birds dropping 29-30 a night in todays NBA other than nostalgia. This is why I always state no era is better than another. Granted I do feel the centers today are lacking and that guys like Dwight Howard wouldn't be as good back then as they are now

Virtually every NBA player would average more ppg with more FGAs. No one can argue that.

And I am not sure what Bird "could" have averaged in today's NBA. I tend to agree with you from this standpoint... Bird was never even a 30 ppg scorer in his post-season play. Clearly, if he was going to shoot more, it would have been in the playoffs. Furthermore, his FG% dropped considerably in the post-season, really plummetted in his five Finals.

True, had Larry just completely shot-jacked, he likely would have averaged 30+ in some post-seasons, but at what cost to his efficiency?

Having said all of that, I believe his FGAs in today's NBA would only be marginally less than what he was taking in the 80's. And his scoring might actually have gone up a bit, on slightly less overall efficiency, with more 3-pt attempts. Personally, I think Bird would have been scoring on about the same level as a prime Dirk, and at about the same efficiency. Perhaps a little higher, but not significantly.
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Old 06-30-2013, 02:24 PM   #169
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Virtually every NBA player would average more ppg with more FGAs. No one can argue that.

And I am not sure what Bird "could" have averaged in today's NBA. I tend to agree with you from this standpoint... Bird was never even a 30 ppg scorer in his post-season play. Clearly, if he was going to shoot more, it would have been in the playoffs. Furthermore, his FG% dropped considerably in the post-season, really plummetted in his five Finals.

True, had Larry just completely shot-jacked, he likely would have averaged 30+ in some post-seasons, but at what cost to his efficiency?

Having said all of that, I believe his FGAs in today's NBA would only be marginally less than what he was taking in the 80's. And his scoring might actually have gone up a bit, on slightly less overall efficiency, with more 3-pt attempts. Personally, I think Bird would have been scoring on about the same level as a prime Dirk, and at about the same efficiency. Perhaps a little higher, but not significantly.
I agree with everything you stated. I do feel marginal would be 1.5 shots on avg (guestimate) and a few less FTs (maybe one trip). Thats five points right there. Give him three points back cuz he would take more threes per game. Id say you could shave off 2-3 points per.

As far as Dirk. Again, consider the situation. Give him Mchale and Parish and his numbers dip as well.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:39 PM   #170
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I understand your point Mick. I feel hed be just as skilled, one if the best players in the league, top three or two behind James. How many players today are capable of avg 25/8/7? For all intents and purposes, thats probably about 18-19 shots per game.

And again, you keep comparing Bird to guys that led the league in FGAs. Bird never did that. But hes supposed to do it now? Guys like Iverson, Durant, James, Jordan, led the league in scoring. Hell, in Birds prime, 28 ppg wouldve put you third or even fourth in the league. Now? That leads the league. In the mid 80s, Jordan was avg 25-26 shots per game. In the mid 90s? 23-24. And again, there was reasons why he was able to take that many shots. RODMAN DIDNT SHOOT. He did avg 25 in 95, but I think that can be attributed to him trying to knock out the rust. Pippen missed half the season in 98. Which forced Jordan to assume a larger role offensively meaning more shots.

To be honest, there is no metric you can use to feel Birds dropping 29-30 a night in todays NBA other than nostalgia. This is why I always state no era is better than another. Granted I do feel the centers today are lacking and that guys like Dwight Howard wouldn't be as good back then as they are now

Well, both LeBron and Durant never lead the league in FGA. They were efficient. And like I said in my pervious post stars from the 80s took the same amount of shots a decade later. MJ was more consistent with his FGA despite who was on his team. In 93 he average 25 FGA. In 92 he average 23 FGA. This was before Rodman was on the team. In 2002, he average 22 shots per game. Same with Karl Malone, Wilkins, Jordan could do it why no Bird? He won't average Jordan FGA because he wasn't that type of player. But my major point is that FGA don't affect superstars normally.

And it's not if this current don't have enough stars to make a bunch shots that doesn't mean other stars will be like them. You mentioned about how I compared Bird to the greatest scores. Look at the competition Bird went up against with scoring in 88:
Wilkins
Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
Barkley

All of them scored and average 27 ppg or more. And they average the same shots in the 90s as well and points. And these guys are great scorers as well. Bird had 30 ppg against these guys. I think Bird at least the same FGA in a slower pace league if he was the number 1 option. They all did, and Bird was better than some of them. He may have not have the same ppg depending on the situation, but he was capable of it.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:03 PM   #171
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
Well, both LeBron and Durant never lead the league in FGA. They were efficient. And like I said in my pervious post stars from the 80s took the same amount of shots a decade later. MJ was more consistent with his FGA despite who was on his team. In 93 he average 25 FGA. In 92 he average 23 FGA. This was before Rodman was on the team. In 2002, he average 22 shots per game. Same with Karl Malone, Wilkins, Jordan could do it why no Bird? He won't average Jordan FGA because he wasn't that type of player. But my major point is that FGA don't affect superstars normally.

And it's not if this current don't have enough stars to make a bunch shots that doesn't mean other stars will be like them. You mentioned about how I compared Bird to the greatest scores. Look at the competition Bird went up against with scoring in 88:
Wilkins
Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
Barkley

All of them scored and average 27 ppg or more. And they average the same shots in the 90s as well and points. And these guys are great scorers as well. Bird had 30 ppg against these guys. I think Bird at least the same FGA in a slower pace league if he was the number 1 option. They all did, and Bird was better than some of them. He may have not have the same ppg depending on the situation, but he was capable of it.
Durant did lead the league in FGAs once. So far. James wouldve led the league once had he played a full 82. He lost out to Bryant by 50 FGs. But he also played 8 less games than Bryant.

I already vividly explained Malones situation in detail. Barkleys situation strengthens my point as well. He joins the Suns who played at a break neck pace but his FGAs never increased. Again because available shots dwindled.

Drexler is another perfect example. His situation in Portland didnt change, but his FGAs did. As well as his ppg. Why? Because less shot opportunities. And he was the number one option. And mind you it wasnt drastic. But just remember one less FG is two pts. Less shot opportunities means less FTs. Factor all that and you see why his PPG went from 27 in the late 80s to 22. And mind you again. One less shot is two points. And less shot opportunities equal less FTs as well. Now he did jump back up to 25 in 92. But at the expense if Kevin Duckworth opportunities. He took three less when compared to the previous year.

Im not saying Birds points are gonna drop into the teens. But they would drop. Providing hes in the same situation.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:50 PM   #172
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
80s NBA basketball averaged up to 115 poss. a game (pace)... 20+ more than today.... thats a much higher pace, especially for the showtime Lakers & Celtics who probably had the highest pace of those 80s teams...

If your'e going to try and sound educated, at least make an attempt to do some research. Here's the league average and league leader in pace from the 1980 season to the 1990 season. Also, what the Lakers and Celtics pace was in each season, and their league rank.

Not one time did a team average 115 possessions per 48 minutes. And the league leader was Nuggets almost every single year until Don Nelson's Run TMC Warriors came along and started challenging them in the late '80's. Some years they were +5 or +3 ahead of he second fastest paced team.

As for the "showtime Lakers & Celtics probably had the highest pace" bullshit...

Lakers
Average Rank: 9.7
Highest Rank: 4th
Top 5: 1 time

Celtics
Average Rank: 13.9
Highest Rank: 6th
Top 5: 0 times

And remember, it was a 23 team league until the 1988-1989 season.

1980
League Average: 103.1 (League Leader 109.1)
Lakers: 104.1 (8th)
Celtics: 102.6 (12th)

1981
League Average: 101.8 (League Leader: 109.8)
Lakers: 102.7 (8th)
Celtics: 100.8 (15th)

1982
League Average: 100.9 (League Leader: 109.8)
Lakers: 103.1 (4th)
Celtics: 101.5 (8th)

1983
League Average: 103.1 (League Leader: 112.1)
Lakers: 103.8 (10th)
Celtics: 104.0 (6th)

1984
League Average: 101.4 (League Leader: 110.5)
Lakers: 103.7 (6th)
Celtics: 99.7 (15th)

1985
League Average: 102.1 (League Leader: 107.6)
Lakers: 103.2 (8th)
Celtics: 101.6 (13th)

1986
League Average: 102.1 (League Leader: 106.7)
Lakers: 102.7 (10th)
Celtics: 101.2 (16th)

1987
League Average: 100.8 (League Leader: 106.2)
Lakers: 101.6 (10th)
Celtics: 98.6 (19th)

1988
League Average: 99.6 (League Leader: 105.5)
Lakers: 99.6 (11th)
Celtics: 97.9 (17th)

1989
League Average: 100.6 (League Leader: 107.5)
Lakers: 100.1 (12th)
Celtics: 98.1 (20th)

1990
League Average: 98.3 (League Leader: 105.9)
Lakers: 96.3 (20th)
Celtics: 98.2 (12th)


I mean I have no idea where they hell you got 115 possessions from. The highest pace of the entire decade was 112 and the second fastest pace team that year was 107. I've seen you fabricate the pace of the 80's before, though, in order to inflate what you think LeBron would average in that era, so it doesn't surprise me.

I'm a little upset it took me so long to see another one of your bullshit lies, because you'll probably never see this, but you've got to be one of the 5 worst posters here, and that's really saying something.

I have to applaud any occasion in which liars/ignorant posters get exposed with the cold, hard facts. Too many people put fingers to keyboard without having the slightest clue what they're talking about. I commend you, good sir.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:26 PM   #173
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poido123

Going on past history and 80's-90's being a tougher era, I'd say Magic would go 22pts 8 rebs and 12 assts, Bird would go 28-30 pts 10 rebs and 6 assists. Also depending what type of team they land on, give or take a point or an assist a game.

Trolling?

2013 Chris Paul got 9.7
2012 Chris Paul got 9.1
2011 Chris Paul got 9.8

But yep, Magic will find a way to get 12

By the way, do you even know when the last person ever averaged 12 apg?

John Stockton.
In 1995

You're either trolling, or an idiot. Take your pick.

Like I said before, when you factor in a more athletic game, with a slower pace, and more complex defenses, mixed in with overall better players, you simply won't get the #s you could get in the weak 80's era...
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:46 PM   #174
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

But both Stockton and Magic lead other PGs by quite a bit in terms of APG. So whether you're talking about Chris Paul or Isiah Thomas, it doesn't matter.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:47 PM   #175
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by TheCorporation
Trolling?

2013 Chris Paul got 9.7
2012 Chris Paul got 9.1
2011 Chris Paul got 9.8

But yep, Magic will find a way to get 12

By the way, do you even know when the last person ever averaged 12 apg?

John Stockton.
In 1995

You're either trolling, or an idiot. Take your pick.

Like I said before, when you factor in a more athletic game, with a slower pace, and more complex defenses, mixed in with overall better players, you simply won't get the #s you could get in the weak 80's era...
Chris Paul averaged 23/11 in 2009 at a slower league pace and 21/11.6 in 2008 at about the same league pace as 2013.

Nash averaged 19/11 during years with slower league pace than 2013.

Magic averaged 12.6 ast/g in 1991 at league pace 5.9% higher than 2013 (and the Lakers team pace was only 2% higher than 2013 average). Lakers PPG was 99.6 compared to 2013 average of 98.1.

Paul and Nash >>>> Magic f*cking Johnson?
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:49 PM   #176
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReal Kendall
I always hear people say if MJ played now he would absolutely crush.

So I was wondering what would Larry and Magic averages be if they played in today's Era?

Would they still be considered top 10 players?

Would they dominate the game?

Would they just be role players?

Discuss.

I didn't initially read the OP, but a definite yes to being top 10 players if we're talking about their primes. Would both be in the top 3, IMO. And hell no at them being role players.

ThaRegul8r, KG215, Micku and 87 Lakers with good points. Their rosters would effect the main outcome of their stats, pace isn't going have much of a factor here... and since both were very much team first mindsets, they wouldn't be very concerned about their numbers.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:02 PM   #177
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Durant did lead the league in FGAs once. So far. James wouldve led the league once had he played a full 82. He lost out to Bryant by 50 FGs. But he also played 8 less games than Bryant.

This was my mistake. I thought that Kobe lead in both years that you mentioned with LBJ and Durant lead. I was wrong with LBJ, but with Durant lead the league in FGA, he didn't lead the league in FGA per game. Kobe was higher than him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I already vividly explained Malones situation in detail. Barkleys situation strengthens my point as well. He joins the Suns who played at a break neck pace but his FGAs never increased. Again because available shots dwindled.
That's not true actually. He took the most attempts in his career as a Suns than any other team. With his whole team with the 76ers, as a starter, he average 15.0 FGA a game. With his whole team with the Suns, he average 17 FGA a game. The year when he won MVP and got to the Finals, he had 18 FGA a game. His most of his career. And when the 76ers actually did slow down the pace (slower than the Suns), Barkley average 17.4 FGA a game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Drexler is another perfect example. His situation in Portland didnt change, but his FGAs did. As well as his ppg. Why? Because less shot opportunities. And he was the number one option. And mind you it wasnt drastic. But just remember one less FG is two pts. Less shot opportunities means less FTs. Factor all that and you see why his PPG went from 27 in the late 80s to 22. And mind you again. One less shot is two points. And less shot opportunities equal less FTs as well. Now he did jump back up to 25 in 92. But at the expense if Kevin Duckworth opportunities. He took three less when compared to the previous year.

Im not saying Birds points are gonna drop into the teens. But they would drop. Providing hes in the same situation.

Well, it wasn't really at the expense of his shots as much as Kevin Duckworth was declining at that stage of his career. And it wasn't as if Clyde wasn't capable averaging those shots. In this case it was situation in whatever helped that team. But you see that happen to today superstars as well. However, Bird is a better offensive player than Clyde.

I get what you are saying when you say shot opportunities. That depends on the coach plans for offense and the player ability to create his own shots. But, it seems like you are saying that Bird (as the number 1 option) cannot reach the Finals or win MVPs by taking 19-22 shots a game? That's where you and I differ because I find that illogical seeing how other players with good offensive teams have already done that in this era, especially with Bird being scorer than them. And I do not think pace matters when it comes to superstars getting their shots as I showed before. All I'm saying that Bird is very much capable of it and probably would do it if he is the number 1 option.

If you are talking about THAT specific mid 80s Celtics team won't get that many shots, then I would think you're right to an extent, even though that is a differently topic all together. The starters could still average those shot attempts because we've seen that with the mid and late 90s Magic and Lakers who played at similar pace as teams today. The 95 Magic team had a slightly slower pace than 02 Kings for example. So, it's not impossible by any means for that same starting five of the 80s Celts to average the same shots as they did in the 80s. But I would say it would be a little different. But I wasn't including THAT Celtics team to begin with. I was just talking about if you put Bird on team today, would he average that many shots.

Lets say you put peak Bird on the Bulls (replacing Rose) or Memphis today. Would he average at least 19 shots? I don't see why not and those teams would be more championship contenders. Do you not think he would average those shots with those teams?

With the Spurs, that would be different. He'll probably take control of the offense and be the leading FGA of that team because he would be their best offensive player. By how much would be a mystery. But it's not impossible to see Parker getting 14 shots, Duncan getting 14 shots, and Bird getting 19 shots because we seen it before. But the bench would lose their shots.

Last edited by Micku : 07-01-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:00 PM   #178
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
This was my mistake. I thought that Kobe lead in both years that you mentioned with LBJ and Durant lead. I was wrong with LBJ, but with Durant lead the league in FGA, he didn't lead the league in FGA per game. Kobe was higher than him.


That's not true actually. He took the most attempts in his career as a Suns than any other team. With his whole team with the 76ers, as a starter, he average 15.0 FGA a game. With his whole team with the Suns, he average 17 FGA a game. The year when he won MVP and got to the Finals, he had 18 FGA a game. His most of his career. And when the 76ers actually did slow down the pace (slower than the Suns), Barkley average 17.4 FGA a game.




Well, it wasn't really at the expense of his shots as much as Kevin Duckworth was declining at that stage of his career. And it wasn't as if Clyde wasn't capable averaging those shots. In this case it was situation in whatever helped that team. But you see that happen to today superstars as well. However, Bird is a better offensive player than Clyde.

I get what you are saying when you say shot opportunities. That depends on the coach plans for offense and the player ability to create his own shots. But, it seems like you are saying that Bird (as the number 1 option) cannot reach the Finals or win MVPs by taking 19-22 shots a game? That's where you and I differ because I find that illogical seeing how other players with good offensive teams have already done that in this era, especially with Bird being scorer than them. And I do not think pace matters when it comes to superstars getting their shots as I showed before. All I'm saying that Bird is very much capable of it and probably would do it if he is the number 1 option.

If you are talking about THAT specific mid 80s Celtics team won't get that many shots, then I would think you're right to an extent, even though that is a differently topic all together. The starters could still average those shot attempts because we've seen that with the mid and late 90s Magic and Lakers who played at similar pace as teams today. The 95 Magic team had a slightly slower pace than 02 Kings for example. So, it's not impossible by any means for that same starting five of the 80s Celts to average the same shots as they did in the 80s. But I would say it would be a little different. But I wasn't including THAT Celtics team to begin with. I was just talking about if you put Bird on team today, would he average that many shots.

Lets say you put peak Bird on the Bulls (replacing Rose) or Memphis today. Would he average at least 19 shots? I don't see why not and those teams would be more championship contenders. Do you not think he would average those shots with those teams?

With the Spurs, that would be different. He'll probably take control of the offense and be the leading FGA of that team because he would be their best offensive player. By how much would be a mystery. But it's not impossible to see Parker getting 14 shots, Duncan getting 14 shots, and Bird getting 19 shots because we seen it before. But the bench would lose their shots.
Bird could definitely lead a team to the finals and win it. While taking more than 20 shots per. Like in your scenario with today's Bulls. Im more alluding to that whole Celtics team.

I also disagree with the continual bombardment of nostalgic 80s fans who overrate that era to no end. Guys posted that Bird would avg 30 ppg PER YEAR. As well as 13/14 rbds. And 7-8 assists. I just dont see it. And im an old school guy.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:35 PM   #179
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Why are people saying Magic can't play at a slower pace. In 90 the Lakers pace slowed way down and he still won MVP
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:01 PM   #180
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Default Re: What would Larry Bird and Magic average in this Era?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Bird could definitely lead a team to the finals and win it. While taking more than 20 shots per. Like in your scenario with today's Bulls. Im more alluding to that whole Celtics team.

I also disagree with the continual bombardment of nostalgic 80s fans who overrate that era to no end. Guys posted that Bird would avg 30 ppg PER YEAR. As well as 13/14 rbds. And 7-8 assists. I just dont see it. And im an old school guy.

Yeah, that's my whole point with Bird playing in this era.

In terms of the 80s team, that's a whole another topic that you can start another thread. All I gott'a say is that the Orlando Magic did it with Shaq. They also did with the Lakers in the late 90s. Kings 01 and 02 were similar, but without the talent that the Celts had. So, it's already been done a few times after the 80s era, with lesser talent. Regardless, the bench will suffer. I don't agree Bird would average 30/14/7 in the regular season tho.
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