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Old 05-20-2013, 01:03 PM   #196
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by tpols
Kobe never said their abilities as players were apples to oranges.

He said their situations entering the league were apples to oranges.

I cant believe people dont get this. He literally wrote like 15 words.. and they outlined exactly what he meant.

Yes and I agree with that. But Phil wasn't just comparing their situations entering the league. He compared their mindset, leadership etc. Kobe would have just been better off not responding because no matter what he says he doesn't come out of this looking good.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:04 PM   #197
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I have no clue why you are so up in arms about 8 to 10 titles for MJ switching places with Kobe.
Then I dont know what to tell you man.. You think MJ wouldve won like Bill Russel in the 60s when there were 8 teams in the league. Its just not realistic.

Jordan had GREAT teams for the bulk of his prime starting in the early 90s to the late 90s.. and he won 6.

But with slightly better teams in the 00s he wouldve won 10? Doesnt add up.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:08 PM   #198
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by Doranku
If we're assuming that Jordan/Shaq would have the same exact path that Kobe/Shaq did, sure they might win from 99-04, but Jordan could very well end up with zero finals MVPs.

99 and 04 would be the only seasons that Jordan would have a shot at finals MVP. Shaq was far too dominant against the Pacers, Sixers, and Nets that they faced/would have faced from '00 to '03.

'04 is a big stretch too, because Shaq dominated the Pistons while they completely shut down every (yes, not just Kobe) perimeter player they faced.

So maybe Jordan gets one finals MVP in '99 against the Knicks. Meanwhile, Kobe would likely have won 3-4 rings in the 90's with Jordan's cast, winning finals MVP each time.

Ultimately, Shaq would have 4-5+ finals MVPs, Jordan 1-2, and Kobe 3-4. Kobe v. Jordan would be a legit argument (with more likely choosing Kobe as being better) and Shaq would be GOAT.

What exactly are we arguing here, again?

You really underrate the difference between Jordan and Kobe if you think that's how it would play out.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:08 PM   #199
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

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Originally Posted by guy
Umm maintaining a relationship with a person has a lot to do with being able to get along with people. From everything Phil said, who is the most qualified person on the planet for this topic, there's more support that Jordan would've had a better relationship with Shaq and those Laker teammates in general then Kobe did.



And their situations have absolutely nothing to do with the comments he was responding too. Like I said, cause he's insecure as shit, he went with the same robotic response that he always uses when this topic comes up.
Your first part makes absolutely no sense. Way, way more dirt on Jordan not getting along with dudes than Kobe. I remember someone had a quote that was like 3 pages long of altercations for him.

And sure what Kobe said makes sense. Longtime lurker touched on it.. the perceptions are 180 because of their situations.

And hes also right in Kobe being wrong for responding since, in the end, it will only make him look bitter.. even if its completely true.

I respect that though. Fvck what people think, say what you believe is right.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:12 PM   #200
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Then I dont know what to tell you man.. You think MJ wouldve won like Bill Russel in the 60s when there were 8 teams in the league. Its just not realistic.

Jordan had GREAT teams for the bulk of his prime starting in the early 90s to the late 90s.. and he won 6.

But with slightly better teams in the 00s he wouldve won 10? Doesnt add up.

Ummm its not a stretch at all to say the Lakers would've won up to 8 titles from 97-04 with Jordan/Shaq, which would've been with 1985-1992 Jordan, and then 2-3 from 08-10 with Jordan/Gasol/Odom/Bynum, which would've been with 1996-1998 Jordan.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:20 PM   #201
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doranku
@ the thought that MJ/Shaq would be able to co-exist any better than Kobe/Shaq did.

Apparently Shaq that had problems with:
Penny
Kobe
Wade
Jerry Buss
Mitch Kupchak
Phil Jackson
Stan Van Gundy
Pat Riley


Was suddenly gonna back down to Jordan, the same one who said his dream team could beat Mike's dream team, that Shaq?

He's even tryna be an alpha on a freaking studio show, but he's gonna play the background for Mike?

as I said, wishful thinking.

Jordan with Shaq would be like Shaq with Kobe.

Like Kobe, Jordan would be the teams lead playmaker, defensive stopper, closer/go to guy in the clutch, 2nd scoring threat, But the offense would still primarily run through Shaq, especially against declined post-'95 center talent .. Plus we're talking about an 18-21 year old Jordan compared to a peak/prime Shaquille O'Neal.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #202
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Your first part makes absolutely no sense. Way, way more dirt on Jordan not getting along with dudes than Kobe. I remember someone had a quote that was like 3 pages long of altercations for him.

And sure what Kobe said makes sense. Longtime lurker touched on it.. the perceptions are 180 because of their situations.

And hes also right in Kobe being wrong for responding since, in the end, it will only make him look bitter.. even if its completely true.

I respect that though. Fvck what people think, say what you believe is right.

You respect insecurity?

Well no one said Jordan was a saint. No one said Jordan and Shaq would be best friends. You can find 3 pages of that stuff if you refer to a book where finding dirt and controversy on Jordan was the whole damn objective of the author. And a lot of the stories they have isn't necessarily about players he absolutely didn't get along with i.e. punching Steve Kerr which is the type of shit that happens all the time between teammates.

What we do have is what the coach, who is more qualified then anyone and has no reason to be bias at least not towards Jordan, of both players has said about their personalities and their ability to adapt to his teammates' personalities.

And by the way, getting into confrontations does not mean you are less relate-able and likable then someone aloof who's more of a loner that stays to himself and doesn't socialize as much.

Last edited by guy : 05-20-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:25 PM   #203
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Then I dont know what to tell you man.. You think MJ wouldve won like Bill Russel in the 60s when there were 8 teams in the league. Its just not realistic.

Jordan had GREAT teams for the bulk of his prime starting in the early 90s to the late 90s.. and he won 6.

But with slightly better teams in the 00s he wouldve won 10? Doesnt add up.

You just said he would win 4ish with Shaq. I say 5...not like 5 is out of reach.

Then how many does he win from 08 to present with the Lakers in place of Kobe?

I say at least 3...

That is 8.

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Old 05-20-2013, 01:30 PM   #204
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doranku
If we're assuming that Jordan/Shaq would have the same exact path that Kobe/Shaq did, sure they might win from 99-04, but Jordan could very well end up with zero finals MVPs.

99 and 04 would be the only seasons that Jordan would have a shot at finals MVP. Shaq was far too dominant against the Pacers, Sixers, and Nets that they faced/would have faced from '00 to '03.

'04 is a big stretch too, because Shaq dominated the Pistons while they completely shut down every (yes, not just Kobe) perimeter player they faced.

So maybe Jordan gets one finals MVP in '99 against the Knicks. Meanwhile, Kobe would likely have won 3-4 rings in the 90's with Jordan's cast, winning finals MVP each time.

Ultimately, Shaq would have 4-5+ finals MVPs, Jordan 1-2, and Kobe 3-4. Kobe v. Jordan would be a legit argument (with more likely choosing Kobe as being better) and Shaq would be GOAT.

What exactly are we arguing here, again?

How does Kobe get to 4 finals mvp's? Who is he beating. He's not beating mj, shaq, or duncan from 97 through 05...unless he joins them...which defeats the purpose of this hypothetical.

we saw him fail in 08. and then we've seen 09 to present.

so you have to assume he gets on title contending teams in both 06 and 07...and even then nothing is for sure.

kobe could easily have ended up with 2 titles, 2 finals mvp's, and 3 ppg higher averages and slightly worse efficiency.

why does Kobe automatically fall on championship teams? what if he plays with iverson like help before 08?

and I'm not sure Shaq monopolizes the finals mvp after 02....I'd think they win 5 and MJ wins 2 finals mvp's...then jordan goes on to win 3 more titles and 3 more finals mvps

that is 8 titles and 5 finals mvps....

the one thing you say that is true...is that shaq would be thought of as a better player historically. so true.

now that you can see that. you should apply that same logic to kobe. because the exact same thing is true. you just can't see it.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:34 PM   #205
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Then I dont know what to tell you man.. You think MJ wouldve won like Bill Russel in the 60s when there were 8 teams in the league. Its just not realistic.

Jordan had GREAT teams for the bulk of his prime starting in the early 90s to the late 90s.. and he won 6.

But with slightly better teams in the 00s he wouldve won 10? Doesnt add up.

I'll add more.

I said between 8 and 10 titles.

So lets get this straight as you say...MJ won 6 as the clear cut best player on teams. We already saw that.

But now it's crazy to think he could win 8 to 10 playing with prime/peak Shaq for 8 years and then the best supporting cast in the league for another 2 to 3 years...and then more solid teams after?

You do realize Kobe won 5 titles....

You do realize how good those Lakeres teams were Kobe's first 3 years without him playing a big role. You do realize that MJ isn't getting punked like Kobe in the 08 finals or the 04 finals or the 03 Spurs series

Think about what you are saying. Year 7 MJ and Shaq losing to the 03 Spurs...it's the most laughable hypothetical ever. It just wouldn't happen.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:44 PM   #206
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doranku
If we're assuming that Jordan/Shaq would have the same exact path that Kobe/Shaq did, sure they might win from 99-04, but Jordan could very well end up with zero finals MVPs.

99 and 04 would be the only seasons that Jordan would have a shot at finals MVP. Shaq was far too dominant against the Pacers, Sixers, and Nets that they faced/would have faced from '00 to '03.

'04 is a big stretch too, because Shaq dominated the Pistons while they completely shut down every (yes, not just Kobe) perimeter player they faced.

So maybe Jordan gets one finals MVP in '99 against the Knicks. Meanwhile, Kobe would likely have won 3-4 rings in the 90's with Jordan's cast, winning finals MVP each time.

Ultimately, Shaq would have 4-5+ finals MVPs, Jordan 1-2, and Kobe 3-4. Kobe v. Jordan would be a legit argument (with more likely choosing Kobe as being better) and Shaq would be GOAT.

What exactly are we arguing here, again?

Pretty much how I see it stricly from a career stand point. Kobe approximately the same age that Jordan was when he was winning titles on the Bulls, (26+ years old in his prime, which means 2006 on Kobe) wins 3-4 rings with 3-4 Finals MVPs. While 20-25 year old Jordan (1984-1989) with peak/prime Shaq maybe wins more rings, but with Shaq being viewed as "them man".
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:46 PM   #207
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

This is why Kobe and his fans are the best. You literally never know what they are going to say next.

We are now hearing the following;

If Kobe didn't have to play with Shaq and MJ did...Kobe would be thought of as the better player.

It's the best. I can't take it...it's just so good.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:55 PM   #208
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
This is why Kobe and his fans are the best. You literally never know what they are going to say next.

We are now hearing the following;

If Kobe didn't have to play with Shaq and MJ did...Kobe would be thought of as the better player.

It's the best. I can't take it...it's just so good.

I don't see the problem. We all know Mike Bibby would've developed into the greatest PG ever if he played with Kareem+Worthy+etc. instead of Webber+Peja+etc. Same thing.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:57 PM   #209
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

lol at people thinking Kobe would have won any ring with that 80/90 Bulls (some saying 4/5 titles talk about being a delusional fanboy).

Shaq played 8 years with that ultimate selfish-ballhog-chuker-sub 45% fg player... so i dnt see any reason he couldnt coexist with MJ, way more eficient/higher bb IQ.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:58 PM   #210
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Default Re: #apples2oranges

not really kobe. this is more like comparing apples to apples
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