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Old 05-14-2013, 03:08 AM   #16
unbreakable
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

why would they not throw away the deck each night as they usually do? thats just asking for trouble
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

I would certainly side with Ivey. Casinos always want everything in their favor. They're basically designed to cheat you out of your money. They love to present the illusion that you have a much better chance than what you really have. Even if Ivey did find a fault in their system, then it was their fault and they should rack it up as a rather expensive lesson learned.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

Should they refund all player losses throughout the time the cards were in use? Lots of customers will be getting their money back!
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:08 AM   #19
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

This is so stupid, even if he did "cheat" it's because of the Casino acting stupid. How is that Ivey's fault?
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

How is this remotely a valid argument unless they are arguing he subbed in his own cards or marked theirs? If i get this correct, the casino is arguing they shouldn't have to pay because they had bad odds. By that same logic they'd never be able to collect players losses
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:07 AM   #21
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
How is this remotely a valid argument unless they are arguing he subbed in his own cards or marked theirs? If i get this correct, the casino is arguing they shouldn't have to pay because they had bad odds. By that same logic they'd never be able to collect players losses

The argument is that the conditions under which both parties agreed to play weren't met.

In a legal sense, just because the casino facilitates the game doesn't mean that they automatically have to carry responsibility for errors in that facilitation that are outside of their reasonable scope of control.

It's a perfectly "valid" argument in a legal sense, if what they are saying is true of course. Sounds like it would be difficult to prove.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:10 AM   #22
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

He obviously didn't cheat, the casino is just tight
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:26 AM   #23
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

I could care less if Ivey gets his money or not, but there are laws/rules in place where if something goes wrong and gives player an undue advantage, that casino doesn't have to pay.

For example, if there is a pricing error on Amazon and thousands of people order an item for $10 instead of $100, you can't say "Well, it's Amazon's fault they had the mistake. Gotta make good on the order!" Clearly, it's a pricing error and Amazon doesn't have to fulfill the order. Similar logic.

That being said, might be hard to prove that Ivey had an advantage or recognized the flaw.....
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:27 AM   #24
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
IMO if a player is able to read the cards from the back that is the casino's fault, no the gambler

of course, casinos don't see it that way...but that is how it should be


this


oh and

the casino manager is gonna go all Ace Rothstein on that dealer
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

Good luck proving that arguably the best poker player in the world had to cheat to win a card game. Maybe if it was some random scrub they would have a better case. Either way, if there was a flaw in their game system, it's on them IMO.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
The argument is that the conditions under which both parties agreed to play weren't met.

In a legal sense, just because the casino facilitates the game doesn't mean that they automatically have to carry responsibility for errors in that facilitation that are outside of their reasonable scope of control.

It's a perfectly "valid" argument in a legal sense, if what they are saying is true of course. Sounds like it would be difficult to prove.
I would think it would be closer to a third party liability issue. Ie there was a manufacturing defect by the card company which made them liable to Ivey for the 12 mil, therefore the manufacturer is liable to the casino for the that amount. I realize that's not exactly what third party liability is but it's pretty close
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
I would think it would be closer to a third party liability issue. Ie there was a manufacturing defect by the card company which made them liable to Ivey for the 12 mil, therefore the manufacturer is liable to the casino for the that amount. I realize that's not exactly what third party liability is but it's pretty close
yet the card company is only responsible for producing the cards, defects or no defects, not for how they wind up getting used... no?


but going back to LJJ's point, how can the casino claim that the conditions of the game were not met when they are the very ones responsible for administering said conditions?

the player can only ever make a request, right? i would think once the casino's employees had chosen to grant that request, they would then take on the liability. meaning, casino is understood to have power to change the conditions of the game from moment to moment, and it is always incumbent on the player to decide whether to play or not.


just talking out my ass, of course... i know nothing about law!
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:05 PM   #28
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

The card manufacturer would almost certainly hold a large deal of the responsibility. A casino isn't buying decks from 7/11. I'm sure they have a lucrative manufacturing contract that should have certain quality terms built in, which is the case in most manufacturing. Now I manufacture aerospace items, so it's a lil different, but still.

If this were a slot malfunction payout, very often, not always, as in the case of a jammed roller, which would be apparent to the player, the payment would be made, and then the issue would be between the casino and the machine maker.

Now, the manufacturer may be able to argue that the casino didn't hold up it's quality end by say, allowing the cards to be played beyond their agreed upon shelf life, and may only be willing to cover only the effects of what the casino's policies would have yielded.

However this has little to nothing to do with the player presuming he didn't mark the cards himself.
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:25 PM   #29
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Default Re: Phil Ivey- ruthless cheater or cagey bastard?

how would this be Phil Ivey's fault. If you bet the wrong thing, the casino isn't going to give you your money back.

Phil Ivey is awesome
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