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Old 04-10-2013, 06:18 AM   #46
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Huge Rondo fan here: Just leave him alone and let him heal. He'll be back next year most likely with a slightly altered game.

That having been said, nobody is catching up to Stockton.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:06 AM   #47
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Being a point guard is not a specific area. Its a position.

Thats like saying "defender" is all-there-is, as if the best perimeter defender or rim protector or shotblocker cant be discussed separately. There are even vertical and horizontal defenses. So many aspects per position or regardless of position. If you dont like to discuss about it, its fine - but to insult and demean others who do, isnt very mature or broad-minded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

If I talk about Durants passing when the issue is his scoring...that is off the topic. If the issue is best point guard...ability to do all the things a point is asked to do....is not.

So why do you admit such specific area as scoring but not passing? Any position has many aspects, and fans like to discuss them. Even scoring itself can be divided to the most clutch/efficient/post/mid-long range, etc etc.

And topic isnt about best point guard, you digress, its about the best pass-first PGs. You are free to create a thread about the best PG, this one isnt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

You dont stop being a point guard when you score any more than a shooting guard stops being one when off the ball.

The idea that being a point guard is what you do when looking to pass is the whole problem. Its flat out inaccurate. Most great points....have been good enough at scoring that them scoring..IS...running the offense.

Scoring and pass first mentality/players do exists, regardless if you like/acknowledge it or not. Its weird as an old fan you dont know about it. You are also unaware some players prefer to play defense and some offense, and its not always purely due to their abilities (or lack off)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

You know that Isiah Thomas was putting up 14 assists a game at one point right? That Stockton, Oscar, and Magic are the only players(retired) who average more assists for their careers? That he had stretches where he had 20, 12, 15, 20, 19, 16, 17, 19, 18, 16, 12, 12, 24, 9, and 25 assists in consecutive games?

When he was asked to create shots for others...he did so at a rate that to that point...had never been done. When his team became more grind it out...defense first...playing through the post...multiple ball handlers...his assists dropped.

There are many variables you have to account, for some reason it seems you assume everyone have the same mentality and inclinations, same duties and situation on the team, and if someone differs - its purely ability based.

Let me point out some variables for you:

1) Mentality and preferences. Yes - everyone is different. Some like to pass, some to score, some all in between and likes women (or guys) after.

2) Different assignments. Lets say Jordan - he was a great PG when asked to, was this his style? No, he just did a good job regardless.

3) Different roster situation. If Magic would have played with prime Kareem and the likes, he most likely would be known as a pass-first PG now as well. Its a bit unfair to assume by default Stockton couldnt be as 1st scoring option. He never was put into such position, playing with monster like Malone.

Regardless what player prefers or not, most such level stars can adjust to situation. To dismiss Stockton's higher-volume scoring possibility (when he was actually good at it) is unfair, just falls to what-if category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

If you think Magic had the ball as much as John Stockton I simply dont believe you are old enough to have watched him in his prime. I remember Stockton....well. He may have dribbled more than anyone in the history of the NBA. He had total control of the ball for years. And higher volume passing? Passing is NOT assists per game. Magic may well have passed more than Stockton because so many more of his passes were just....moving the ball. Stockton no doubt passed the ball more to people in position to score right away....but he dribbled more in doing it and passed no more overall if not less.

I started watching NBA because of Magic vs Bird rivalry, and was always rooting against Jazz (especially hated Malone's elbows). It doesnt preclude me from giving due respect, and Stockton was the best floor-general and passer than anyone else in NBA's history, including Magic (default GOAT PG to me, but not in specific areas). Thats expected, any position's GOAT wasnt the best at everything, there is always someone better in some area.

John was a better floor general than Magic IMO, and did it much more efficiently (FACT). Even time-outs at the end when its default coach time, Stockton often ran the plays instead and did the right decisions. You can agree or disagree with an eye-test, but you know I can back my opinion up with advanced stats. Magic never reached such highs (in this specific area), nor anyone else in NBA history. I remember calling Stockton a cyborg - cold-blooded with high-volume laser precision passes, he didnt looked human Never liked him (nor Isiah), but always respected his play.

Last edited by Harison : 04-10-2013 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:23 AM   #48
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Just something that was bugging me so I looked into it....

In Isiahs prime he wasnt even shooting that much...but people(who dont remember him) list him as someone with a score first mentality. In 86 he put up 21/11...he shot 16 times a game. On a team that took 95. Kidd in his prime took between 14-16 a game(end of Suns run and first couple years as a Net...id say that was him at his peak). In 03 Kidd took 16 shots a game on a team that only took 80. He took more of his teams shots than Isiah Thomas did. When Isiahs shots peaked...he was only taking 19 of 92. He was still shooting about as much as Jason Kidd in his prime. Kidd at one point was doing 13 of 78 shots...which is the same rate Isiah was shooting as a 20+ ppg scorer. No doubt there is more to it posessions wise(FTs, turnovers, and all). But really...Isiah was shooting just...a tad more than one of the more pass first points of all time.

I remember watching coaches break down clips on CBS....back when Hubie was on there. Nobody was of the opinion that Isiah was anything but a playmaker. Guys like Nique listed him as the person they would most want to play with because hes always looking to pass.

I watched him enter 4th quarters having taken like 6 shots 4 of them in transition and then take over and end up with 20 too many times to count. Dude broke the single season assist record...retired I think #3 in assists despite only playing till he was 32....

But now....20+ years later...its said:


Quote:
Stockton was an excellent shooter and slasher, yet he was looking to pass-first, not to score-first (a la Rose, Isiah, etc). Thats mentality. Some people are just wired this way.

I have to ask....what the **** were you watching and how did I miss it while being a fan of a division rival of the Pistons in Isiahs prime?

Am I imagining Isiah passing ALL game but taking 6-7 bailout shots late in the clock(shot....quarter...whatever) and a few transition layups with open jumpers mixed in? Dude was feeding the post, passing, passing, and passing some more and scoring when he was supposed to.

But now....hes not looking to pass?

Swear people just make the truth what they want it to be.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:39 AM   #49
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Quote:
Thats like saying "defender" is all-there-is, as if the best perimeter defender or rim protector or shotblocker cant be discussed separately. There are even vertical and horizontal defenses. So many aspects per position or regardless of position. If you dont like to discuss about it, its fine - but to insult and demean others who do, isnt very mature or broad-minded.

Purity...is not as aspect of point guard play. Its a word that has come to mean virtually nothing. It wasnt said "Rondo will go down as the best assist generating player".


Quote:

So why do you admit such specific area as scoring but not passing? Any position has many aspects, and fans like to discuss them. Even scoring itself can be divided to the most clutch/efficient/post/mid-long range, etc etc.

And topic isnt about best point guard, you digress, its about the best pass-first PGs. You are free to create a thread about the best PG, this one isnt it.

Its about best....pure...PG. And as I said earlier...even if it were not....if Magic Johnson isnt a pass first player there never was one.


Quote:
Scoring and pass first mentality/players do exists, regardless if you like/acknowledge it or not. Its weird as an old fan you dont know about it. You are also unaware some players prefer to play defense and some offense, and its not always purely due to their abilities (or lack off)?

A point guards job is the get the best shot for his team. It is that simple. If you dont use your abilities to do that...you are not a good point guard.

Because of that...it pretty much is always an issue of ability. Eric Snow isnt Eric Snow because he doesnt wish to be Chris Paul. And Rondo isnt a 10ppg player because he doesnt feel like being Magic Johnson. You are...what you are.



Quote:

There are many variables you have to account, for some reason it seems you assume everyone have the same mentality and inclinations, same duties and situation on the team, and if someone differs - its purely ability based.

Let me point out some variables for you:

1) Mentality and preferences. Yes - everyone is different. Some like to pass, some to score, some all in between and likes women (or guys) after.

2) Different assignments. Lets say Jordan - he was a great PG when asked to, was this his style? No, he just did a good job regardless.

3) Different roster situation. If Magic would have played with prime Kareem and the likes, he most likely would be known as a pass-first PG now as well. Its a bit unfair to assume by default Stockton couldnt be as 1st scoring option. He never was put into such position, playing with monster like Malone.

Regardless what player prefers or not, most such level stars can adjust to situation. To dismiss Stockton's higher-volume scoring possibility (when he was actually good at it) is unfair, just falls to what-if category.

All of which has nothing to do with your claim that Isiah was score first....and your conclusion has nothing to do with anything I said. I dont believe ive said a negative word about John Stockton....ever.

Quote:

I started watching NBA because of Magic vs Bird rivalry, and was always rooting against Jazz (especially hated Malone's elbows). It doesnt preclude me from giving due respect, and Stockton was the best floor-general and passer than anyone else in NBA's history, including Magic (default GOAT PG to me, but not in specific areas). Thats expected, any position's GOAT wasnt the best at everything, there is always someone better in some area.

John was a better floor general than Magic IMO, and did it much more efficiently (FACT). Even time-outs at the end when its default coach time, Stockton often ran the plays instead and did the right decisions. You can agree or disagree with an eye-test, but you know I can back my opinion up with advanced stats. Magic never reached such highs (in this specific area), nor anyone else in NBA history. I remember calling Stockton a cyborg - cold-blooded with high-volume laser precision passes, he didnt looked human Never liked him (nor Isiah), but always respected his play

I dont care if you think Stockton is better than Magic at anything. I care that idiots act like being a pure point guard is....not scoring when scoring is the right play for your offense.

And I hate when its supported in ways that makes it seem they have no idea how the people they talk about played.

Really...the idea that Magic was more ball dominant than Stockton just blows me away.

John Stockton pretty much dribbled from 1984-2003 only stopping for gatorade and dropping it off for a layup. Which...again...was the right thing to do.

It just makes me wonder what John Stockton you watched.

Not that Magic didnt have the ball..its just that...Josh Stockton pretty much had the ball most of every posession for 20 years.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:49 AM   #50
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Kblaze8855, you dont account for mentality, playstyle, situation, roster, etc. Read my posts again and maybe you'll see what this topic and my posts are about.

Now you want to go black-or-white, either this or that, but in no shape or form different players can have different mixture of playstyles, isnt? Every player is unique and if you want to discuss specifically Isiah (neither topic nor my post centered about him, just few mentions), we can do that.

Again - there are many aspects per position or regardless of position, and if you dont want to discuss them (or even admit they exists), then what are you doing here?
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:16 AM   #51
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Nah.

But he's better than Kobe.
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:47 AM   #52
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Quote:

Kblaze8855, you dont account for mentality, playstyle, situation, roster, etc. Read my posts again and maybe you'll see what this topic and my posts are about.

Now you want to go black-or-white, either this or that, but in no shape or form different players can have different mixture of playstyles, isnt?

This topic is about pure point guards and the potential for Rondo to be the greatest of them. The word "pure" being a qualifier used for the express purpose of removing better point guards. My issue being...it doesnt seem like anyone can explain why Rondo is a "pure" point guard and players who are more talented scorers arent....when they all attempt to do the exact same thing. Look to get the best shot. "Pure" used in this way is nothing but a way to get inconveniently great players out of the discussion because Rondo lacks the talent to do what they did. Pure might as well be worded "Limited". And even if we act like being a "pure" point isnt looking to get the best shot for your offense(an absurd notion to be clear)....Rondo sure as hell isnt John Stockton or Steve Nash anyway. And thats if we break the people up....which there is no reason to do.

If you take "pure" to mean pass first...it still leaves virtually every great point in the discussion. Magic Johnson in his prime was having years taking 11-12 of his teams 88-92 shots. Meaning Magic was by percentage...taking less shots than Rondo. Hell Rondo shot more per game this season than Magic did in 4 seasons of his prime.....on a team that score 110-118ppg. With that many more chances...he shot LESS....than Rondo does now.....and did so in his prime. As an MVP level player. Not by percentage. On the bottom line. Rondo shot more this year on a team that scored 96 a game than Magic in his prime on a team that score 118. Magic might well have been taking 4-5 shots a game that were not transition layups. Magic went entire seasons without taking 20 shots in a game. He had multiple seasons where he had more 20 assist games than 20 shot attempt games. He might go beat you up in the post and get to the line...or get bumped on a drive in transition...but Magic was as pass first as it gets.

But somehow people get it in their heads to remove him from pure PG discussions....

And the reason to do it...is his greatness making the argument not worth having. Same for Oscar. And lately Isiah. The word "pure" is thrown out as an excuse to disregard people who are better...not less prone to pass. Flat out better at getting their offense the best shot. And if running your offense better than someone more limited makes you a less "pure" point guard the word has no meaning. No positive one at least.


Quote:

Every player is unique and if you want to discuss specifically Isiah (neither topic nor my post centered about him, just few mentions), we can do that.

No. I dont think you can. Which is why what little you said of him made no sense. Same for stockton and Magic. Its always the tiny details that make it obvious when someone is talking out of their ass. Isiah thinking score first and Magic being more ball dominant than stockton when he spent looooooong periods of time not even handling the ball while Stockton dribbled as much as anyone...those are the kinds of things said by someone who just reached into the depths of their ass to find an opinion based off assumption to make a point they dont know enough about basketball to support.


Quote:

Again - there are many aspects per position or regardless of position, and if you dont want to discuss them (or even admit they exists), then what are you doing here?

I am talking about basketball. It would appear im doing it with someone who did not watch the people hes talking to me about.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 04-10-2013 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:13 PM   #53
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

Rondo is an elite passer, but there are flaws in his overall game, especially in terms of scoring. As someone already mentioned, his jumpshot has definitely improved since he first entered the league, however the percentages are misleading. Teams still don't respect his shooting, so a lot of his jump shots this year were the result of coaches daring him to shoot by having defenders go under screens.

One of the reasons why the Celtics have been successful without Rondo is that Pierce has been running the offense more. Pierce's playmaking ability has always been underrated. Pierce's scoring is still very well respected and he still has the ability to draw double-teams when handling the ball on the perimeter, or suck in the defense through his penetration, which creates good looks for his teammates.

I'm not one of the people who feel that the team is better without Rondo, but I was disappointed with the way he was playing this year. He was dominating the ball too much (which was either his fault or Doc's) and playing lazy defense. The team has multiple playmakers who are now being utilized more, so the ball movement is better. They're also getting more transition baskets do to no hesitation outlet passes, whereas before, if Rondo didn't grab the rebound, then he would immediately call for the ball and bring it up himself.

At this point, he's still not a franchise player but if he can improve his offense and play consistently good defense like he has in the past, then the Celtics might be able to put a championship team around him, when Pierce and KG retire. It's highly unlikely he goes down as the best pure PG in history, though.

Last edited by GreenTeam87 : 04-10-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #54
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Default Re: When its all said and done, Rondo will go down as the greatest pure PG in NBA history

first Rondo is not near the all time great PGs

My description of the PG position is finding the best shot within an offense, whether that is for him or his teammates. Other things like pacing the game are obviously important as well. Where Rondo fits in that regard is among the elite over the last few years, would still like to see him play with more aggression at times.

As for the criticism of "Rondo ball" as of late, have people not notices, that the problem with the Celtics offense go beyond Rondo. Especially when you are looking at offensive statistics like Ortg, The Celtics don't grab offensive rebounds, don't score in the paint, don't get to the line, and don't hit enough 3's. So, how is that any of Rondo's fault??? that just describer how the Celtics are built. The Celtics are a team that is built around taking long 2's and in the context of TS% they have always had a top 10 rating in that regard.

If some of you guys watched Celtics games you would see that effort level was the biggest problem with the team and they only play with urgency for stretches at a time. People hold it against Rondo that they were on a 6 game losing streak just prior to him getting hurt and a 5 game winning streak after but choose to ignore that they won 5-6 games before that 6 game losing streak
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