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Old 04-09-2013, 09:10 PM   #121
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
You're missing my point.

But you just said it's hardly a perfect measure...yet the entire argument for your side is based on it.

And it goes up in smoke when you start talking about other players besides Durant like Harden and Kevin Martin.

Kevin Durant could be taking 21 shots a game this year and averaging the exact same number of free throws...and your argument would amount to nothing because fga vs ft rate would be right in line with everyone else....assuming we don't have to debate that Durant is better at drawing fouls than Melo and Kobe like everyone has agreed to.

And if those shots were 2 more threes (just like Melo) and 1 more long jumper (just like Melo)....you just wouldn't see a change in free throw attempts.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #122
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Well his scoring abilities are becoming increasingly masked by obnoxious touch foul calls that significantly aid in his PPG output. So as of this moment, I don't know how good of a scorer he actually is as a player.

I actually think he's a better shooter than he is a scorer. He used to play better off the ball, and he's got that long range. He's essentially Dirk with better handle, and a better finisher / transition game. But I still don't like it when he puts the ball on the floor.

To me he's too tall and long to be playing as far away from the basket as he does. It's annoying. He's 6'11 with a 7 footer's wing span. He should play much closer to the basket.

Hell, his physique bothers me. He's built like a string bean, looks so fragile with these girly narrow shoulders, and an odd thick neck. As seen in the Miami series, or when Artest used to guard him ... he can't take physicality. You bump him and make him uncomfortable before he touches the ball on the perimeter and you can give him MAJOR problems. Takes him right out of his game.

In a more physical league, I wonder what Durant would actually look like when he's not being promoted by the league's refs in order to manufacture another superstar, one with whom they can label as LeBron's equal.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:13 PM   #123
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Well his scoring abilities are becoming increasingly masked by obnoxious touch foul calls that significantly aid in his PPG output. So as of this moment, I don't know how good of a scorer he actually is as a player.

I actually think he's a better shooter than he is a scorer. He used to play better off the ball, and he's got that long range. He's essentially Dirk with better handle, and a better finisher / transition game. But I still don't like it when he puts the ball on the floor.

To me he's too tall and long to be playing as far away from the basket as he does. It's annoying. He's built like a string bean, with these girly narrow shoulders, and an odd thick neck. As seen in the Miami series, or when Artest used to guard him ... he can't take physicality. You bump him and make him uncomfortable before he touches the ball on the perimeter and you can give him MAJOR problems. Takes him right out of his game.

In a more physical league, I wonder what Durant would actually look like when he's not being promoted by the league's refs in order to manufacture another superstar, one with whom they can label as LeBron's equal.


Sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in reffing between LeBron and Durant is to get them to become rivals. LeBron already cracked because of unfair reffing against him and he has to sit here and watch Durant get BS calls all day and then get compared to him.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:15 PM   #124
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Getting to the free throw line is a talent. Only disreputable scum cannot appreciate Durant's overwhelming greatness.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:19 PM   #125
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ThatsGame
Sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in reffing between LeBron and Durant is to get them to become rivals. LeBron already cracked because of unfair reffing against him and he has to sit here and watch Durant get BS calls all day and then get compared to him.
Don't get it twisted, LeBron complaining like that ... specifically after a loss, on fouls that weren't excessive makes him a bitch. Even a Miami fan should be able to admit that ...

You didn't see MJ, Larry, or Magic crying after losses about fouls. Ones that were much more excessive and violent than the ones on LeBron. Mind you the call he complained about on Hinrich ... he INTIATED the contact barreling into him with his shoulder. The 6 inch shorter, and probably like 80 lbs lighter Hinrich had no choice but to pull him down. By doing tat he helps both of them on the fall.

But yes, I wouldn't doubt all this favortism and bull shit calls Durant gets is possibly either conciously being done to help promote the league, and a potential rival for LeBron. The Kobe v.s. LeBron matchup failed to take flight from 2006 - 2012. All they have left is Durant. Pretty sure the league has given up on propping up or promoting Melo. As seen by the complete disrespect and lack of calls he gets. All while taking much more physical punishment than Durant.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:25 PM   #126
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by Psycho
Getting to the free throw line is a talent. Only disreputable scum cannot appreciate Durant's overwhelming greatness.

Bingo to the bold.

And if Durant were...I don't know...20% better at drawing fouls and getting to the line than guys like Melo and Kobe...then it would all make sense.

Even with using fga as the main factor. Put in minutes played and slightly factor in Melo and Kobe settling for more bad shots...and you have reality.

No conspiracy...no crazy statistical anomaly. You simply have a player that decided to shoot less bad shots and try to get to the line as much as possible all year. And why wouldn't he? He shoots 91% from the line.

And, I'm not basing any of my argument on this, but if Durant has taken just 25 more tech free throws...which honestly seems very likely...that would be an extra .3 fta per game that has nothing to do with the game. Before I get flamed...I'm not claiming that...but if it were true...on minutes and techs alone...Melo would see a .6 increase in free throw attempts per game. Which is actually huge when the difference is 1.8 to begin with.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:25 PM   #127
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
How many shots you take is a factor...but it's not the sole factor.

Agreed

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How can you not see that.

I can.

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We've already all agreed that Durant is better at drawing fouls.

We have? You have. I most certainly have not. In terms of their ability to intentionally draw fouls, where otherwise none would exist, Durant is among the best in the league, though I'd still say guys like Kobe and Wade are better in that regard. The more important measure is how often you actually think they get fouled - intentionally or not. Durant is better at drawing intentional shooting fouls that Harden, but Harden gets fouled more - whistled or not - because his style of play lends itself better to drawing contact. Lebron is the same way in my eyes. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but to me Lebron draws more contact than Durant, despite Durant being better at intentionally drawing it, because his style of play lends itself to him being hacked.


A lot of your argument is that of a strawman; it stems from the assumption that I think fta/fga is the sole criteria for this type of analysis, which is a false assumption.

Last edited by DatAsh : 04-09-2013 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:31 PM   #128
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
Agreed



I can.



We have? You have. I most certainly have not. In terms of their ability to intentionally draw fouls, where otherwise none would exist, Durant is among the best in the league, though I'd still say guys like Kobe and Wade are better in that regard. The more important measure is how often you actually think they get fouled - intentionally or not. Durant is better at drawing intentional shooting fouls that Harden, but Harden gets fouled more - whistled or not - because his style of play lends itself better to drawing contact. Lebron is the same way in my eyes. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but to me Lebron draws more contact than Durant, despite Durant being better at intentionally drawing it, because his style of play lends itself to him being hacked.


A lot of your argument is that of a strawman, much of your argument stems from the assumption that I think fta/fga is the sole criteria for this type of analysis, which is a false assumption.

If you don't think Durant is better at drawing fouls then your argument makes more sense than what other people are saying...because everyone else has pretty much agreed Durant is better at drawing fouls.

I think it's just semantics. I'm not saying Durant gets fouled more...I'm saying he does a better job getting to the line. Which is basically just me saying that Durant plays to get fouled intentionally more than guys like Lebron, Melo, and Kobe this year. Which is exactly what you just said. Harden is the exact same way. Kevin Martin was that way in 2011.

And when you combine a player that is very good at drawing fouls to begin with...then chooses to do it more often. FGA just don't matter all that much...hence it's really not anything more than one of many factors in determining free throws.

Durant and Harden this year are perfect evidence for that. Martin in 11 is more evidence for it.

You guys would have way more of a solid point if the difference was bigger and if we hadn't seen similar stuff before. And again, we have a player this year shooting less shots and taking almost 1 more free throw per game than Durant. LOL
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:36 PM   #129
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

How many hours a day do you suppose Durant works on his ability to draw fouls?
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #130
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

And again to Shaq.

When I first posted...I provided exactly the context needed. That in a similar amount of minutes played per game. Durant is getting to the line slightly less than 1 more time per game (as you get 2 free throws per trip)...

What a player does with the time on the court can be many things. You jumped in and went nuts with your fga vs fta rate...acting like that is all that matters. Which, of course, there is no evidence for that. So you took it in that direction saying that.

I could have just of easily responded that all that matters is how many minutes a player plays and what you do on the court in the time is up in the air.

And once you admitted that Durant is better at drawing fouls...the debate, for all intensive purposes, is over....and then you refused to quantify how much better he is. All you did was say how much better he is according to your hugely flawed fta vs fga rate. Which goes out the window because Kobe's rate is higher than Melo's...yet Kobe takes less shots and Melo shoots more shots at the rim. But you are okay with that....LOL

And you accuse me of being biased? Makes non sense.

And then when I explained that fga alone is not a huge factor...and that you'd have to look at certain types of shots...you just ignore that and focus on the "at rim" stuff. Which, for arguments sake, I conceded. Even though just shooting at the rim does not mean you are better at getting fouled. Durant could draw more fouls at the rim despite shooting less shots...in fact, that scenario is more likely than you think because you don't get credited with a shot when you are fouled. See...see how many flaws there are in your thinking?

But even if we agree to go off your flawed rate...you still get a likely scenario in which Durant takes 3 more shots a game (2 threes and 1 long jumper) to get his total to 21...and he adds no more free throws per game. Because we all know that Melo takes at least 3 shots a game like that...in which he's just simply never getting fouled on...or at least it is so rare it doesn't even matter stats wise. All you are doing is rewarding Melo and Kobe for taking 2 to 3 more bad shots per game that have no impact on free throw shooting overall.

So again. If Durant was take 3 more long shots a game and shooting the same amount of free throws...would you still have an issue? Because if you did, then your fga vs fta rate argument goes up in smoke.

Also, the Thunder take 27.3 free throws a game. The Knicks take 21.5 free throws per game. That is a big enough gap to logically conclude that the Thunder spend more time in the bonus. How much does that impact Durant getting to the line. Does he get fouled once every 3 games in the bonus and go to the line more often than Melo? Think about that. If it happened only one more time every 3 games. That is roughly .7 more free throws per game off the bonus alone.

But lets say it doesn't happen that often. Lets say it's only .5 per game. So;

On minutes you see a .3 difference. Just a fact. So the difference goes from 1.8 to 1.5.

Now, if Durant has shot more techs, even a small amount, and he's fouled more often in the bonus...that 1.5 difference could easily drop to .8....and this is before we've talked about anything actually relevant to the players.

See why I said the margins are small?

So I ask again. Why is this an issue. We have a player that plays more minutes, likely shoots more techs, plays on a team that spends more time in the bonus, takes less bad shots, and the KICKER....is better at drawing fouls.

And it is absurd for him to shoot 1.8 more free throws per game?

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-09-2013 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:17 PM   #131
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Your "rate" is solely based on fga. You are assuming that fga is what determines free throw attempts. It is a factor, but not the sole factor. Harden and Durant destroy that theory....unless you are claiming that both of them get special treatment that no other players in the league get

Obviously it's not the only factor, but FTA can't be posted as proof of anything without them. And in 20 years watching the NBA I've never seen a player get the treatment Durant does.

Quote:
How do you feel about Harden.

Well, Harden pretty much either shoots 3s or goes to the rim. 31.3% of his shots come at the rim, significantly higher than either Durant or Melo. And he also plays on the fastest pace team in the league which helps with easy baskets. However, he is a notorious flopper, so I'd say he gets too much credit with the refs as well.

Quote:
And you certainly can't just claim that Kobe is great at drawing fouls on jump shots like it means anything. We've already determined Durant is better at drawing fouls.

Again, Kobe is the best in the league at drawing fouls on jumpers. Best I've seen in a long time. He's guarded as tight as anyone, and he has the best pump fake in the game. Only guys like Reggie kicking their legs out come to mind.

Quote:
Please answer. Would you have a problem with Durant shooting the exact same amount of free throws if he shots 21 shots a game? Please answer.

Depends on what I saw watching the games. Chances are 9.4 FTA would be the upper limit for 21 FGA. If he was primarily going to the rim for those extra shots then it wouldn't be so bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Oh, I forgot the shots within 10 feet argument.

So you have

7.3 for Melo
7.0 for Durant

But then...how about shots 16 feet and out

11.6 for Melo
8.0 for Durant

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Who cares? Outside of 10 feet, you're talking jump shots anyway. You're not that much more likely to get fouled than you are on a 3, especially when you consider late close outs. But this doesn't necessarily help your argument either. I see Melo get fouled a decent amount on turnaround jumpers outside of 10 feet, and I just saw him draw a foul on a mid-range shot tonight during his hot streak in the 3rd quarter.

You keep claiming I tried arguing FGA are the ONLY thing that matters and stuck to it. That's simply false. I got more in-depth with shots at the rim(which is easily the place you'll be fouled most frequently) and even expanded it to 10 feet and in.

You're the one whose grasping at straws with 3s and other nonsense. Fact is, Durant attempts almost 2 more FTA while shooting considerably less at the rim and less inside of 10 feet in general.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:24 PM   #132
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Obviously it's not the only factor, but FTA can't be posted as proof of anything without them. And in 20 years watching the NBA I've never seen a player get the treatment Durant does.



Well, Harden pretty much either shoots 3s or goes to the rim. 31.3% of his shots come at the rim, significantly higher than either Durant or Melo. And he also plays on the fastest pace team in the league which helps with easy baskets. However, he is a notorious flopper, so I'd say he gets too much credit with the refs as well.



Again, Kobe is the best in the league at drawing fouls on jumpers. Best I've seen in a long time. He's guarded as tight as anyone, and he has the best pump fake in the game. Only guys like Reggie kicking their legs out come to mind.



Depends on what I saw watching the games. Chances are 9.4 FTA would be the upper limit for 21 FGA. If he was primarily going to the rim for those extra shots then it wouldn't be so bad.



Who cares? Outside of 10 feet, you're talking jump shots anyway. You're not that much more likely to get fouled than you are on a 3, especially when you consider late close outs. But this doesn't necessarily help your argument either. I see Melo get fouled a decent amount on turnaround jumpers outside of 10 feet, and I just saw him draw a foul on a mid-range shot tonight during his hot streak in the 3rd quarter.

You keep claiming I tried arguing FGA are the ONLY thing that matters and stuck to it. That's simply false. I got more in-depth with shots at the rim(which is easily the place you'll be fouled most frequently) and even expanded it to 10 feet and in.

You're the one whose grasping at straws with 3s and other nonsense. Fact is, Durant attempts almost 2 more FTA while shooting considerably less at the rim and less inside of 10 feet in general.


You keep pretending that the rim is the only way to get to the foul line. You keep pretending that Durant isn't excellent at drawing fouls all over the court.

You are on to something about the fact that Harden is also excellent at drawing contact. But you shoot yourself in the foot using the at rim shots for Harden because, as you said, he gets more easy baskets.

It matters more how good these players are at drawing fouls. Kevin Martin in 2011 shot a much higher rate of free throws than Durant is this year. It is hardly unheard of.

If Melo and Durant played the same amount of mpg this year. The difference in fta would be 1.5 per game. I'm asking you...what should that difference be according to you. Please answer...


You are exactly right about the outside of 10 feet. You just said that they shoot a comparable amount inside of 10 feet. So most of Melo's extra attempts come on shots that aren't likely to draw a foul. You are making my point for me you moron....especially after you conceded Durant is better at getting fouled. So if he's better at getting fouled and he takes less long shots...that does matter. Which, again, is why Melo taking 4 shots more per game from 16 feet and out is important to your fga theory.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-09-2013 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:29 PM   #133
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

I'll ask it to everyone in the thread. Once they are even in mpg. The difference between Melo and Durant is 1.5 free throws per game.

What should the difference be according to you guys?
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:31 PM   #134
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You keep pretending that the rim is the only way to get to the foul line. You keep pretending that Durant isn't excellent at drawing fouls all over the court.

Actually, you're implying this yourself by harping on long range shots. You just contradict yourself by bringing up where the shots occur.

Quote:
You are on to something about the fact that Harden is also excellent at drawing contact. But you shoot yourself in the foot using the at rim shots for Harden because, as you said, he gets more easy baskets.

At the rim. Harden doesn't even have a mid-range game and takes over 6 thees. A higher percentage of his shots are 3s than Melo. So it's you shooting yourself in the foot. The Harden example only suggests that shots at the rim are the best way to go when breaking down FTA.

Quote:
It matters more how good these players are at drawing fouls. Kevin Martin in 2011 shot a much higher rate of free throws than Durant is this year. It is hardly unheard of.

Martin is another notorious flopper.

Quote:
If Melo and Durant played the same amount of mpg this year. The difference in fta would be 1.5 per game. I'm asking you...what should that difference be according to you. Please answer...

7-8 FTA per game for Durant would probably be ok.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:39 PM   #135
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Actually, you're implying this yourself by harping on long range shots. You just contradict yourself by bringing up where the shots occur.



At the rim. Harden doesn't even have a mid-range game and takes over 6 thees. A higher percentage of his shots are 3s than Melo. So it's you shooting yourself in the foot. The Harden example only suggests that shots at the rim are the best way to go when breaking down FTA.



Martin is another notorious flopper.



7-8 FTA per game for Durant would probably be ok.

No. I'm saying that there are certain shots they have very little chance to get fouled on. Melo takes more of them. And I never said fga was nearly as big a factor as you. I'm just pointing out that a certain number of the fga for Melo and Kobe simply have very little chance to get fouled on. Just like Harden with his threes. Martin shot 3.2 shots at the rim in 11 and his free throws were off the charts...LOL

Ok. We'll go with 8 free throws considering that is what Melo would average playing the same amount of minutes. Since you already conceded that Durant should get to the line more than Melo...I find it a little disingenuous to claim only a .1 difference.

Now. How much more often do you think Durant gets to the line simply by his team being in the bonus more often. The thunder shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr than the Knicks and are likely in the bonus more often.

As I said before, even if Durant only got to the line 1 more time every 3 games off of this...that would be a .7 difference.

So on minutes and that alone...I get Durant down from 9.4 to 8.4. And that isn't even taking into account techs...but we can ignore that.

So you are left with 7.6 for Melo and 8.4 for Durant on things the players don't do. Minutes and Durant having an advantage for being on a team that draws more fouls.

Is 8.4 too high for you still?
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