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Old 04-08-2013, 09:22 PM   #91
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
A well expressed argument

You are wasting your time, I wasted mine not too long ago and many will waste their's in the future.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:26 PM   #92
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

The part you're missing is LeBron and Melo don't get free throws for using the "moves to get free throws" that players that are "good at getting fouls" use.

Fouls aren't supposed to be something you create by swinging your arms and rushing into players. It's something that is called when OTHER players hit you.

Stop being a ****ing moron.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:29 PM   #93
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
How can this be quantified without knowing what is going on inside the refs head? This isn't a skill that you can train, unless you consider acting a basketball skill. This is something that comes down to how the refs want to call it that particular day.

Is that supposed to help your side? If it comes down to the refs and how they feel on a particular day...then if said player isn't noticeably better at something...we wouldn't see the results we've seen.

We have Durant consistently getting to the line more often per game. Because it is something he's very good at.

And the fga argument doesn't hold much water because anyone with a bit of objectivity knows that Kobe and Melo settle for bad shots way more often than Durant.

Forget the Melo side of it for a second. What argument does Kobe have? he takes 2.3 more long range shots a game and only .6 more at the rim. He settles for long jumpers often over trying to draw contact. If you stripped it down fairly...you'd get something like 17.9 vs 18.4...and your side already admitted that Durant is better at getting to the line. So on a similar amount of shots...I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for Durant to go to the line a little less than 1 more time per game than Kobe.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:30 PM   #94
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by ThatsGame
The part you're missing is LeBron and Melo don't get free throws for using the "moves to get free throws" that players that are "good at getting fouls" use.

Fouls aren't supposed to be something you create by swinging your arms and rushing into players. It's something that is called when OTHER players hit you.

Stop being a ****ing moron.

That is just a personal bias. Do you feel the same way about Harden?

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

Lets talk about the bold. Kobe has taken 149 more shots and 141 less free throws. Okay. Kobe has also taken 67 more threes on the year. And he's taken roughly 100 more shots from 16-23 feet. Kobe has taken roughly 35 more shots at the rim than Durant. We don't know who has taken more techs, but Durant shoots them for his team and Nash shot them for the Lakers often. Durant is on the floor more per game, .3 minutes...but everything, even small things, are factors. And we've already had your side concede that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what would be acceptable to you? I mean...you are getting into those small margins between unacceptable and acceptable. Kobe takes 2.4 more shots per game. Kobe also takes more bad shots per game. Kobe is also worse at drawing fouls. I still don't see the outrage over Durant going to the line less than 1 more time per game given all the evidence.

And honestly that isn't even doing it justice.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-08-2013 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:58 PM   #95
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Oh...and Shaq. Your argument about Melo shooting more late game free throws.

Durant takes 20 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.
Melo takes 10.5 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.

So, uhhh, no....

Here is my main issue with you. If Durant took 2 more 3's per game...and 1 more long jumper. He'd be taking 21 shots a game and his free throw attempts could conceivably not even go up given the nature of the shots.

And your entire argument would go out the window. Not to mention...I've been agreeing to argue this based on the premise that fga determines fta. Which I don't think is true at all to begin with...there are so many other factors that go into this in addition to fga. So you acting like fga vs fta is the only metric is absurd to begin with. But I've been arguing that way so we'll have somewhat common ground.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-08-2013 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:26 AM   #96
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

hate the game not the player. Stern wants the league to be soft so these guys are just taking advantage. Just look at harden.
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:49 AM   #97
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

This board is overran with illogical i**ots... Durants improved handle with his crossover and moves to the rim has aided him in getting to the line more often..he's breaking down defenses and getting to the rim even better this year than last year, you either foul him or get scored on. "Treated like Lebron"...How man fouls is lebron really gonna draw gettin easy fast break dunks and coming off of screens all season long?...Even still he gets BS calls and get away with charging alot.

Whether you guys want to admit it or not Durant is the best scorer in the NBA..spot up, pull up, off the dribble, dribble drive...he can and will score.

Last edited by I.R.Beast : 04-09-2013 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:58 AM   #98
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.R.Beast
This board is overran with illogical i**ots... Durants improved handle with his crossover and moves to the rim has aided him in getting to the line more often..he's breaking down defenses and getting to the rim even better this year than last year, you either foul him or get scored on. "Treated like Lebron"...How man fouls is lebron really gonna draw gettin easy fast break dunks and coming off of screens all season long?...Even still he gets BS calls and get away with charging alot.

Whether you guys want to admit it or not Durant is the best scorer in the NBA..spot up, pull up, off the dribble, dribble drive...he can and will score.

Yes. The notion that free throw attempts are only impacted by field goal attempts is non sense to begin with. But even if that were true...people still can't grasp that Durant takes better shots (doesn't settle) and is just better at drawing fouls.

Oh my god. Melo takes 4 more shots per game. Unfortunately what they don't realize is that Melo is worse at drawing fouls and settles for bad shots way more often

And then nobody can even give their opinion on how much more Durant should be shooting at the line if all things were equal.

So I'll try it that way. Durant, Kobe, and Melo all take 20 shots a game. How many more free throws should Durant shoot per game?

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-09-2013 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:13 AM   #99
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Lol dmavs you're a lost cause. Do you have LP? Wait no Fvck LP, just watch the nationally televised OKC games and you'll see it. Durant gets more no or almos no contact fouls than any superstar we've seen recently, while Melo is the modern day AI in terms of ref treatment.

You dont need numbers for this sh.it. KD is an elite foul drawer like every other superstar but the refs bail this kid out on literally every miss he acts shaken up on. You can even see opposing players just look at him in disgust sometimes, as if to say "wtf is this s.hit". Prime example would be a game you as an NBA fan couldnt have possibly missed, Christmas OKC VS Heat. Refs were swallowing his *** from all over the place to make the game close at the end, but then of course Bron came back in, dished out some assists and scored a nasty ass fadeaway right in KD's face to put it away
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:32 AM   #100
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

So ****in tired of everyone discrediting Durant because he gets to shoot two more FTs, not realizing the majority of throws he gets is due to OKC being in the bonus usually early. You know beside Durant we got this other player who attacks the rim relentlessly all game and averages 7.7FTA a game himself, so it's another major factor.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:54 AM   #101
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

durant would be the NBA's leading scorer every single year easily if he had a chris paul pass first type player on his team instead of westbrook.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:04 AM   #102
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

Didnt read through whole thread so sorry if already posted.
IMHO I think it's not the "amount" of freethrows, but rather the "ways" Durant get the freethrows that makes people complain. For a jumpshooter, Durant really does have excessive freethrows, though an argument can be made that because of his frail body structure, physical play does reflect quite well. Pair that up with him getting the benefit of the doubt in most calls, he is averaging a crazy amount of freethrows. It's not his fault that he gets superstar calls, that's just how the league is run, but when talking about superstar calls, its undeniable that Melo and Lebron, who drives much more that Durant, needs to be absolutely destroyed before they can get calls.

This takes nothing away from Durant though. Though I do think that he gets the benefit of the doubt a lot from watching OKC games, which is usually an freethrow fest he is still an awesome scorer.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:11 AM   #103
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

The fact that he gets more free throws than Russ doesn't really help his case and gtfo with that frail body s.hit. Did AI get to average 14 FTA (he should've) because he was skinny AND got hit hard? Nope. Had that guy been reffed like KD he would've eclipsed every free throw record in his prime, except for maybe most without a miss
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:40 AM   #104
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by Element
The fact that he gets more free throws than Russ doesn't really help his case and gtfo with that frail body s.hit. Did AI get to average 14 FTA (he should've) because he was skinny AND got hit hard? Nope. Had that guy been reffed like KD he would've eclipsed every free throw record in his prime, except for maybe most without a miss

I also disagree with the frail body argument , I'm only mentioning it as a comparison to guys like Melo and Bron who are built like tanks.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:29 PM   #105
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Default Re: Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
So it all amounts to this.

You think Melo is disrespected. You think Kobe shooting more free throws despite shooting less at the rim and less overall doesn't matter because you think Kobe is great at drawing fouls.

Again, you're not using logic. Kobe doesn't get to the line at the same ridiculous rate Durant does, or even close. I pointed out Kobe has the best pump fake and footwork in the game, and for years, he's baited defenders into fouling him on jump shots.

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That isn't enough mate. And you don't think any of the evidence to the contrary is acceptable because...well, you don't like it.

If there was some evidence contrary to my opinion that was anywhere near as strong as what I've posted then I'd acknowledge it. But there isn't.

Quote:
Guess what. You are not making any sense. You can't just talk about fga and shots at the rim without understanding if a said player is as good as the other at drawing fouls.

I've said Durant is better at selling fouls and clearly looks to sell them more. That accounts for some, but not all of the huge disparity. This was true last year when Durant was averaging a far more reasonable 7.6 FTA on 19.7 FGA.

Quote:
Here are the facts. Melo shoots over 4 more shots from long range a game. Melo also throws the ball wildly at the backboard on drives to get his own tip in. Which does two things;

1. It sometimes prevents from calling a foul because he's out of control
2. It inflates his shots at the rim because he's getting credit for a shot every time he tips it in. He does at least once a game. So that 1.6 shots at the rim logically becomes more like .6 if we are being fair, but of course we aren't because you are so biased

You're assuming Melo intentionally does the Moses thing 1 time per game, and I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. Wouldn't surprise me if he averaged one offensive rebound per game on his own misses, maybe even more, but a lot of the time, it's because he tries to make the first shot and misses it, often because there's contact on his first attempt that would get Durant free throws 99% of the time.

Quote:
Then we get to Kobe. You have no issue with Kobe vs Melo...yet it is very similar. Why? Because you are biased against Durant...it's so obvious.

Again, Kobe has the best pump fake in the game, and the disparity isn't even close to as big. I have no bias against Durant. I've called him the best scorer in the game and the second best player in the game the last 2 years. I'm just not going to watch the games and pretend he deserves the excessive amount of free throws he gets.

Quote:
In Durant vs Kobe. Kobe shoots 2.3 more long range shots than Durant a game. He shoots .6 more shots at the rim. So that is a 1.7 difference. Kobe only shoots 2.5 more shots overall than Durant. Durant most likely takes more technical free throws as well. The margin is incredibly small...and we haven't even factored in the most important thing...

The long range shots doesn't make much more of a difference. If you want to we can look at shots 10 feet and in, which is closer with Melo at 7.3 and Durant at 7.0. Even so, Durant still gets to the line at a much higher rate.

Quote:
Durant is better at drawing fouls than Kobe.

Actually, no, he isn't. He flops, which Kobe doesn't do, but Kobe is definitely better at getting guys off their feet with his fakes, and Kobe is defended every bit as tight on his jump shots as Durant is, and probably gets fouled more on them than anyone in the league.

If you want to talk about biases, everyone on this board knows you're biased against Kobe, and it's obvious in probably 75% of your posts about him.

Quote:
You argument is flawed and biased and your refusal to acknowledge that the two guys you keep supporting are probably the two guys in the league that take the worst shots consistently. Durant doesn't settle that much...that is you answer. Those possessions where Kobe and Melo just take a long contested jumper...Durant is attacking and drawing fouls.

And you really think that disparity comes on mid-range jumpers? You think more of these fouls are coming there than at the rim? It's obvious what's going on here. You made a simple-minded argument posting just FTA, I provided context, you tried to do the same by eliminating 3s, I did you one better again, but you're too stubborn to admit it

Quote:
But again. What is more likely? That Kobe and Melo settle a little more and that Durant is just noticeably better at drawing fouls? Or that the NBA has a conspiracy against the likes of Melo and Kobe?

Please...

So you think that Melo and Durant are officiated the same way? Thanks, you've just told me that you don't watch Knick games which explains a lot.

You still haven't tried to explain why Durant's own FTA have increased so much from last year.

It's not Durant getting to the line more than Melo that bothers me, it's the enormous difference, and not just between them. Durant and virtually every other superstar I've seen.

You want to see a real comparison with Lebron and Durant too? Durant averages 17.9 FGA and Lebron averages 18. Virtually the same, yet Durant averages 9.4 FTA while Lebron averages 7.0.

Lebron takes 6.7 shots at the rim per game. That's 2.7 more than the Durant. And you can't even try to your flawed 3 point argument here either because Durant takes 4.2 threes while Lebron takes 3.5.

In this case, Lebron usually doesn't take technicals, but I can tell you that Durant isn't averaging anywhere near 2.4 technicals per game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Oh...and Shaq. Your argument about Melo shooting more late game free throws.

Durant takes 20 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.
Melo takes 10.5 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.

So, uhhh, no....

Here is my main issue with you. If Durant took 2 more 3's per game...and 1 more long jumper. He'd be taking 21 shots a game and his free throw attempts could conceivably not even go up given the nature of the shots.

And your entire argument would go out the window. Not to mention...I've been agreeing to argue this based on the premise that fga determines fta. Which I don't think is true at all to begin with...there are so many other factors that go into this in addition to fga. So you acting like fga vs fta is the only metric is absurd to begin with. But I've been arguing that way so we'll have somewhat common ground.

I never mentioned anything about free throws in crunch time in particular. I simply stated that Melo is almost always on the court to end quarters in general, meaning all 4. His rests usually come to start the 2nd and to start the 4th. Durant actually often rests the last few minutes of the 1st and last few minutes of the 3rd.

And your argument is still invalid, in this post, I've expanded FGA from at the rim to inside 10 feet in general, and Melo still takes more.

Plus, there's a comparison between Lebron and Durant, and not only does Lebron take far more shots at the rim, but he takes fewer 3s.

Last edited by ShaqAttack3234 : 04-09-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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